Norfolk Depot for N&P

Tue Oct 10 12:03:44 EDT 2023

    On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 08:27:54 PM EDT, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:  

 Hi,
Oh neat, I have some of these on my ho layout.  I did not think to put a target on it though. This is great, thanks.
I have mixed experience with them, it gives some realistic stuff but I have two mines that form a secret continuous run.  My NWSL class E's both hit the thing with their running gear.
David Baker
On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 12:36 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

Abe
Attached is the Sanborn Fire Map for overall Norfolk from 1882 courtesy of the Library of Congress, showing the Norfolk depot and area. Most likely, this was also the N&P depot, or site for such, based on the descriptions. It is a smaller depot, and the location is close to where the later Norfolk Union Terminal would be.
Prince’s reference is an N&W Magazine article from August 1923 and quotes it almost word-for-word. Which I suspect was mostly taken from old Annual Reports. I do not have my N&P or SS Annual reports handy at the moment.
BestKen Miller

On Oct 9, 2023, at 10:59 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

Thank you, Mr. Sledge !

But now this hillbilly really be confused !!!, for a lot of reasons:

1. The name Elizabeth River has been ambiguously applied on mapping over the years. What is obviously Newton's Creek is shown as (part of) Elizabeth River on today's Google Maps. The more old maps one consults, the worse it gets.

2. US Geological Survey Topo maps for this area only go back to 1902 (albeit the 1902 ed. is based on surveys made 1888-1889.) The 1902 Topo is not of a scale adequate to show the details which would help people with our kinds of interest (e.g. creek names and street names.)

3. The names Bramble's Point, Noe's Bridge, Racefield Bridge and Hardy Home are not productive when Internet searched.

2. It appears to me that Richard Prince's book, Pocahontas Coal Carrier, simply quoted some source and Mr. Prince never looked at a map to see if the reference was understandable (or accurate.) If he had checked a map, he would have seen that the quotation has east/west and north/south backwards, with respect to the ways the water courses run !

However, if we take Prince's quotation at face value, and make a big fudge factor allowance, the quotation appears to be saying that the Norfolk & Petersburg RR had its Norfolk depot somewhere within perhaps a mile east of its crossing of the Elizabeth River. Which location is about a mile north of Newton's Creek/Newton Creek... good grief. (The Elizabeth River Bridge is at coordinates 36.774960, -76.294995. The Newton Creek coordinates are 36.7671294, -76.27912194. )  This may put the location of the N&W depot about a mile north of Newton Creek and about a mile west of the lower end of present Portlock Yard.

To allow others to share in, enjoy and laugh at my utter confusion, I have put the 1902 USGS Topo up on Google Drive, and you may get it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WF3rVgYk28dn1242g8r50SMZoaPA7KxN/view?usp=sharing

This Roanoke hillbilly is in over his head. This is clearly a job for a Norfolk city-slicker. Where is the Estimable Mr. Harry Bundy when we need him to draw a nice map for us mountain people ? Earth Calling Mr. Bundy... Please meet me at Newton's Creek !

Abe:  Regarding the Elizabeth River crossings -- a mile or so timetable west of Terminal Station was Bridge #5 -- this was ID'ed on the N&W as Eastern Branch (of the Elizabeth River).  The crossing west of Portlock Yard was Bridge #7 - ID'ed as Southern Branch (of the Elizabeth River) which further south turned into the A&C Canal.  An interesting note about the Bridge 7 bridge-tender.  He controlled the eastward signal at the east end of The Dismal Swamp.  Before The Permit System (1965 ?)  Lamberts Point, Sewalls Point, even the middle tracks were filled with coal that had never been sold.  Sometimes, the bridge tender had four (or more) coal trains stacked in Dismal Swamp waiting for an  empty track to become available.

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