Swiveling rear engines/the Arrow/PA model production

Thu Feb 12 00:24:08 EST 2015

Hi Group –

Well – I’d certainly sign up for a ‘sports cab’ version as my email at the time of its initial announcement was made, but from memory my nudge for reservations received very little if any response – hence its cancellation. Currently USD1650.00 translates into AUD2150.00 at the prevailing exchange rates so only x1 model (plus the passenger cars) would be on my want list, or I’ll be kissing my x2 Alaskan Malamutes were I to order 2off! I just hope that the Aussie ‘dollar’ just doesn’t keep falling along with the prices for our iron ore and coal – too much bad news there!

But folks, we VGN and N&W modellers  have by and large had a pretty good run at getting models of our favourite road engines and passenger cars over the past few years, particularly for the VGN. There are not many locos of the late steam variety that remain to be produced, mainly the MC/MCA, SA and the PA if my memory serves me correctly, and very few have sat around on importers shelves for an excessive period of time with the possible exception of the OMI MB, but even these are not common offerings on the used market today. There are no electric locos outstanding but maybe a revamped FM 16-44 diesel might be desirable?

So what is the viable figure for a minimum run to be produced today at an affordable price – 50 perhaps? How many Jawn Henry models were built? Only Jack himself would know how soon that the VGN/N&W models that he has produced to date have cleared his shelves and as to whether VGN modellers are enthusiastic purchasers of them. However with the increase in PA data from the Society which has come to light in recent times, if availed by an importer, would result in a excellent model being produced and one to be coveted. From my perspective the passenger cars shouldn’t present too many problems at being produced given the very limited scope for variations between them – look at the N&W heavyweight cars as built by JU WON and the very limited numbers that some were produced in (ok different paint and roofs in the main). 

Besides, didn’t the initial announcement of the PA coincide with the global financial crash of a few years ago? If so that clearly would have had an impact upon reservations at the time.

Well, one can live in hope – I trust that with all this discussion on the PA results in an importer ‘biting the bullet’ and finally committing to produce the model. Maybe the time is nigh!

Regards.

Clive Riley.

Glen Innes. Australia.

From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015 6:34 AM
To: NW Modeling List
Subject: RE: Swiveling rear engines/the Arrow

Bob:

Interesting insight.  I haven’t had a response back to my recent inquiry yet.  Firm orders for 65 pieces (combined) of 2 types sounds generously low, considering that the PAs fell right between the USRA Light and Heavy Pacifics in almost every way except driver diameter—which was unusually low at 69”.  So I’m guessing that there isn’t an past DP model frame or mechanism that is close enough, let alone dead on, as a starting point.  The $1650 wholesale price seems a bit high, but maybe Jack gave that number when the won was high against the dollar.  (And it might be again, when (if) this model finally lands!)

I would certainly sign up in blood (to address one of Frank’s concerns) to purchase a model of the sports cab version.  

But I recall H Reid writing something about PAs being used occasionally on time freights, and were even known to lend their ~45000 lb of tractive effort at the lead of a double-headed coal drag.  Now if anybody could produce a photo of the latter, and it was a square-cab version, I might need one of each!

And, after paying for both of them, probably wish I’d kissed a porcupine instead.

-Eric

From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 11:59 AM
To: 'NW Modeling List'
Subject: RE: Swiveling rear engines/the Arrow

As it turns out, I was in the middle of a conversation with Jack Vansworth of Division Point about an issue with my Viriginian Trainmasters and I added a desire for the Virginian PAs.   Below is the email trail:

Min of 65 with 2 types.....price about $1650 Wholesale

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Bob Cook <seadevil8 at verizon.net> wrote:

How many orders do you need?  bob

From: Jack Vansworth [mailto:jack at divisionpoint.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 4:56 PM
To: Bob Cook
Subject: Re: Contact from Division Point Web Site

....wanted to do that for years, but never could come up with enough orders Bob.....rally the faithful, i think I still have the plans.  Cheers Jack

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Bob Cook <wordpress at www.divisionpoint.com> wrote:

Name: Bob Cook
Email: seadevil8 at verizon.net
Comment: I wanted to thank you for calling with the information on removing the truck on the Virginian Trainmaster.  I had tried the screw but it didn't "unscrew."  Having gain some confidence that removing the screw was the right approach, I was able to separate the truck from the screw by pulling the nut out of the truck.  It had been rotating in the truck when I rotated the screw.  I was able to reassemble it and it looks as good as new!

Now if you would import a HO Scale Virginian PA (4-6-2 light Pacific), you'd make my year!

From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:46 PM
To: NW Modeling List
Subject: Re: Swiveling rear engines/the Arrow

Eric, from a very reliable source, a few years ago DP informed us that it appeared that they couldn't count on selling 30 PA's at the anticipated $1,700 price, so the project was dropped.  Also dropped a year or two later was the planned set of VGN 3 passenger cars; if memory serves the list price for the 3 brass cars was in the $800-$1000 ball park.  And, let me put on my high price hat for a moment: it would be very risky for the Society to guarantee any sales of a brass locomotive.  For several reasons.  

Frank Bongiovanni

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:10 AM, NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

Frank:

Before “brassbashing” a VGN PA, please note that BPL Brassworks (http://www.railmodel.com/) still lists a Division Point project to import two versions (square and sports cab); DP-5001 and -5002.  I can’t find this project “announcement” anywhere else, including on the Division Point site (http://www.divisionpoint.com/site/) , so I wrote a note to Jack Vansworth asking if this project was still under consideration.  I’ll post his reply, if/when I get one.  

If the project is still under consideration, I’d expect a model price in the $1800 - $2000 range, although the PA’s weren’t festooned with appliances like DP’s recent H-10 Mikado models, which landed in the US at a list price of $2015 (black paint schemes) to $2195 (P&LE green paint schemes.)  

The good news is that we wouldn’t have much to quibble about over the hue of paint on the PA models.

Jack has shown that he’s willing to work with some of the historical societies, and has done pretty darn well by the N&W (other than the Trainmaster lettering snafu.)  I’d like to have an accurate model of both PA versions, but would probably (well, definitely) have to restrain myself to a sports cab version to “represent”, given the likely price.  Two Branchline coaches and a kit-bashed combine would fill out a “Virginia Creeper” quite nicely—a modeling and painting challenge within my scope of time and skill.

I doubt the PAs would get produced without advanced reservations for at least 80, and maybe 100, (combined) of the two versions.  But I wonder whether N&WHS could get “dealer pricing” from DP, if we guaranteed orders for 50 or so models?  That could lead to a $400+ per model benefit to Members plus some cash in the N&WHS coffers.  But the Member reservations would have to have teeth in them to insure that the Society doesn’t get hurt.

Straw poll, any one?

-Eric Bott

From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 2:57 PM
To: NW Modeling List
Subject: Swiveling rear engines/the Arrow

Matt, in one of my clinics I spend some time discussing threshold's of tolerance: i.e. what bothers you.  And this will vary from individual to individual.  As I said, the rear engine swiveling bothers me, but it hasn't bothered me enough to keep me from some locomotive purchases.  Factors include things like 6 coupled or 8 coupled, and how much I have to pay for one that doesn't swivel.  Watching the cylinders on the rear engine swing out is mildly irritating.  Hasn't kept me from the Bachman C&O H5 and the Proto 2-8-8-2, but I do prefer the Powerhouse 2-8-8-2.  I noticed that the Precision VGN AG is now available for a bit over $3,000.  So VGN guys now have to think about the Rivarossi at around $4-500, the Key at around $800-$1,000, and the Overland creeping up on $2000 (although the availability of the Precision may cause that to drop).  One other point: a good number of Gem/Akane VGN AG's were sold, although they were just C&O Alleghenies with a different box.  Anybody who can come up with the correct AG dome (I'm still expecting someone to do it in 3D printing)may be able to sell a few. 

But the spread of what bothers some people is interesting.  Personally, the MTH Virginian triplex gives me a headache.  You and I know people who get hystercal at what they perceive as the wrong shade of (pick one): Tuscan Red, Pevler Blue, Enchantment Blue, Brunswick Green....you get the idea.  

On a related note (thanks for the reminder, Harold)we welcome articles where someone has taken a stock model and "fixed" or detailed it to make it closer to a true N&W or Virginian prototype.  [Sidebar: if anyone has successfullly kitbashed, brassbashed, or scratchbuilt a Virginian 4-6-2, please tell us about it].  

And one other point in a memo that's already too long (shocker, I know).  Generally, and this involves scores of locomotives, an articulated N&W 2-8-8-2, even with a fixed rear engine, is usually not a minimum radius problem.  Partly because it is articulated (which was Anatole Mallet's point)and partly because the drivers are comparatively small.  A PRR Q-2 or Santa Fe 2-10-4 is more likely to be a problem, but will take 30" usually.  A UP 4-12-2 usually needs 34" or more.  

Now with all that said, any of you who have successfully rigidized the rear engine of a Rivarossi, BLI, Bachman, or Proto articulated, an article is invited. 

Frank Bongiovanni

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