Pocahontas consist Q & A
NW Mailing List
nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Mon Sep 28 18:24:05 EDT 2015
Yes Dave, that is correct. Train 3 dropped three cars for Columbus (Train 33) and picked up three head end cars which arrived earlier on train 23. 23 terminated at Portsmouth. The three cars headed to Columbus: one sleeper, one coach, and the M1 postal car which ran Bluefield-Columbus.
--Rick Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List
To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Cc: NW Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2015 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Pocahontas consist Q & A
Rick:
Thank you for this detailed explanation. However, I need you to clarify the following two sentences:
"At Portsmouth train 3 picked up three more head end cars, two from Greensboro and one Washington-Cincinnati car (all from Southern Ry). These cars were forwarded west in local train 23."
Do you mean "These cars had been forwarded west in local train 23." In other words, N&W train 23 got them from the Southern in Lynchburg or Roanoke, but they weren't put on train 3 until Portsmouth?
Thanks,
Dave Phelps
In a message dated 9/27/2015 9:00:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:
To answer Ray's question about how mail and express cars which came east on N&W train 4 returned west: Number 3 ran with only the BMf car Norfolk to Roanoke. In Roanoke, two more express and storage mail cars destined for Cincinnati were picked up. One of these came from Petersburg on local train 7. At Portsmouth train 3 picked up three more head end cars, two from Greensboro and one Washington-Cincinnati car (all from Southern Ry). These cars were forwarded west in local train 23. The Washington-Cincinnti car came off The Tennessean at Roanoke along with a New York-Roanoke car! To complicate matters, not all these headend cars operated every day of the week. The Washington-Cincinnati car ran only on Saturday. After the demise of the N&W locals, what was left of the interline mail and express business moved to the name trains. Jim is correct that prior to the 1960's you did not see box express cars running on most N&W trains, but you did on the Southern run throughs. The term express car does not necessarily mean "box express." The mail and express cars on the Tennessean operated to and from Chattanooga except for the baggage-coach combine running on to the train's Memphis destination.
The Pocahontas had a heavier eastbound consist than westbound. The consist sheets show 15 cars between Williamson and Roanoke on Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sunday. So yes, a J had the capability to handle so large a consist. The best photo of this is in Norfolk and Western Passenger Service 1946-71 by Warden and Ken Miller, page 36. Fourteen cars, and 6 of them are heavyweights.
Who says passenger train operation and modeling isn't interesting?
--Rick Morrison
From: NW Mailing List
To: NW Mailing List
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: More on the Pocahontas image
This is just a guess, but is based on the fact that I don't remember seeing box express cars in the consist of the Pocahontas. You say the cars originated in Cincinnati and Chicago. Perhaps they came down the CNO&TP to Chattanooga and were put on the Tennessean there. If so, the cars returning on the Pelican might have gone back to Chattanooga on the Pelican. In other words, maybe the cars did not run on the N&W main between Walton and Cincinnati. Just a guess!
Jim Nichols
On Friday, September 25, 2015 5:56 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
Rick,
Thanks for this interesting and helpful information.
Given your expertise demonstrated in your answer, you may be able to help me with a consist question I have been unable to answer. Between 1960 and 1964 I spent considerable time watching trains at Kemper St Station in Lynchburg. During that period No.46, The Tennessean, always has between two and five mail cars attached to its end coming through Lynchburg. These were taken off at Monroe and put on Southern No. 19, the mail only train that left Monroe about 6pm headed south.
My questions are:
1. How did these mail cars get to Roanoke? As I recall they were from Cincinnati and Chicago. Some were "box express" cars and some were of the kind shown in the photo of No. 4 in Roanoke. While the most obvious answer is that they came to Roanoke on No. 4, I have not seen pictures of No. 4 in Roanoke or points west with the box express cars. Further, I question if No 4 had the capacity to handle five of these mail cars (sometimes fewer) as well as its other consist.
2. By what trains did these cars make their return trip west? I believe they came north on Southern No. 30. (The Peach Queen), were left in Monroe around 2:30am and picked up by No. 41 (The Pelican) about 4 am. for the trip west. But The Pelican went to Bristol and on south, so how did the cars get back to Cincinnati and Chicago. The Powhatan Arrow was the next westbound train through Roanoke but we know the cars were not attached to this train (or so I think because I saw No. 25 in Roanoke and points west a number of times and never observed these cars in the consist).
Any insight you or anyone else can provide will be appreciated. Thanks.
Ray Smoot
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 24, 2015, at 12:20 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
Rick is absolutely right. I am wiser now, and agree with everything he asaid.
Jim Nichols
On Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:39 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
Re: The Pocahontas Image.
Please look very carefully at the far left of the photo from railpictures.net. In front of the class Pg coach is a BMf postal baggage with a shadow over the postal apartment. Behind the Pg coach is a Pm coach which would be highly unusual for Trains 9 and 10. That is why my logic tells me this is the Pocahontas.
If anyone has any doubt about the postal car on the Pocahontas in 1954 check out these b&w photos. The postal car always ran ahead of the first coach, baggage end forward. The fifth car in the Roanoke view is a Bmf postal baggage car scheduled Cincinnati to Norfolk. Three of the storage mail cars came off in Roanoke. One went on to Lynchburg on train 10 (to Greensboro NC via Southern), the other to Petersburg in Train 8.
I will scan and submit separately train consist sheets for Train 4 as it existed in March 1954. I also have sheets for Trains 9 and 10 if there is enough interest.
--Rick Morrison
Moderator:
http://nwhs.org/mailinglist/2015/20150924.NW_Pocahontas_1950_2nd_115.jpg
http://nwhs.org/mailinglist/2015/20150924.NW_Pocahontas_nr_Farmville_1953116.jpg
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