Express Boxcar ?
NW Mailing List
nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Mon May 23 12:23:37 EDT 2011
Mr. Newton,
Thanks for this information. It certainly sheds light on what we have been discussing. The photo that began this discussion does appear to be a mail and express section, rather than a passenger section.
Studying the boxcars in this particular photo , I still believe they are not B-8 cars, but could be recently upgraded/rebuilt cars. I am surprised to learn that some B-8 boxcars may have been converted for service in passenger schedules. You mention that the cars used were probably the newest on the roster; I had not considered that but it certainly makes sense since these cars would run at passenger speed and schedule.
I don't recall reading anything about LCL service on the N&W; was this service provided in passenger or freight operations?
Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD
----- Original Message -----
From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 10:15:19 AM
Subject: RE: Express Boxcar ?
For several years in the early 1950s -- and perhaps at other times -- some
N&W boxcars were temporarily equipped with steam heat and signal lines in
order to handle overflow Christmas mail and express in passenger trains. I
don't recall the class of cars so equipped, but they were probably the
newest on the roster at that time. They were not normally operated in the
passenger sections of the mainline trains, but were restricted to the
mail-and-express sections and to locals.
The Pennsylvania Railroad had a number of box express cars equipped for
passenger service that were regularly operated in the joint N&W-Southern
trains. No. 17, the Birmingham Special, frequently had such cars in its
consist.
Louis Newton
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> 1. Re: Express Boxcar ? (NW Mailing List)
> 2. Re: Express Boxcar ? (NW Mailing List)
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 23:00:33 EDT
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Message-ID: <a3cd6.19cf489f.3b0b27d1 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Jim:
>
> Yes, as you noted earlier in this thread, the five B-8a's with their
> cushion underframe were used in LCL service. As to B-8's in passenger
> mail
> storage service, N&W apparently did prepare the drawing
> Type Drawing Locator NW Mech Dwg - NW-D45856 Description Steel
> Details for Box Car Class B8 for Temporary Mail Storage Car Date
> 10/23/1953
> Author N&W Railway that's in the NWHS archives. Of course, whether the
> conversion(s) were actually done, or were applied to some BSb's instead,
> I
> certainly don't know. Hopefully others may.
>
> Dave Phelps
>
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2011 9:52:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:
>
>
> Just to clarify, I don't think any B-8's were modified for use in
> passenger
> train service; there was a small group of cars that were in dedicated
> less-than-carload (LCL) service; these would have most likely been in the
> consists of local freights. LCL was not handled as such on passenger
> trains
> that I am aware of.
> Jim Brewer
> Glenwood MD
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 1:32:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
>
> In support of Jim's thesis, compare the side sill shapes. The cars in
> the
> Thieme photo have side sills like the BS/BSb in that picture. In
> contrast, here's a B-8 from the NWHS Archives -
>
> _http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=1272_
> (http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=1272) . Also, this picture
> confirms Jim's point
> about the doors.
>
> So, while apparently some B-8's were modified for this kind of service,
> that's not what's in the Thieme photograph.
>
> Dave Phelps
>
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2011 10:24:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:
>
>
> This photo is on page 24 of the Thieme book. These are not Class Ef box
> express cars; those cars had an inset door, like a baggage car, that
> opened
> by sliding it inside the body; additionally, the doors were shorter in
> height and there was a section of the side that was "solid" above the
> door
> opening. Here is a link:
> _http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1715.jpeg_
> (http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1715.jpeg)
> The cars in the Thieme photo are definetely freight boxcars that have
> been
> converted for passenger train service. These are not Class B-8 boxcars;
> the B-8 cars had an 8-foot wide door and clearly these are 6-foot wide
> doors.
> I believe these are Class BSb boxcars; here is an image of the Class BS
> boxcars:
> _http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3230.JPG_
> (http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3230.JPG)
> At some point, these cars were rebuilt; some were made single door cars
> with a door opening of 6-foot and reclassified BSb. The info I have
> suggests
> the original class was built in 1927-28 time frame. The Railroad Spec -
> Bill of Materials is No. 373 and a General Arrangement Drawiing of
> G-27252.
> The BSb class is what I believe to be represented in the Thieme photo.
> As Gordon has pointed out, cars in passenger service require different
> equipment. My "guess" is these cars were excess boxcars that were
> modified to
> run in passenger service; they were pressed into service as mail storage
> cars and used during the Christmas season. Remember, in the 1950s, there
> was no UPS or FedEx; and the REA relied on the railroads as well.
> Another
> "guess" is that once converted, these cars were simply stored when not
> needed. Perhaps somewhere in the Archives there is documentation of this
> conversion.
> The B-8 cars were virtually brand new when this photo was taken by Mr.
> Thieme. The N&W would not have made extensive changes to a new car for a
> temporary service. There were some cars, classed B-8A I believe, that
> were in
> dedicated LCL service.
> Jim Brewer
> Glenwood MD
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:33:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
>
> Dave,
>
> Here are a few comments that others may be able to augment. First, I'm
> not convinced that the two box-express cars are B8's. Second, whatever
> they
> are, in order to operate in a passenger train they would have to be
> equipped with a passenger-type air brake control valve, a communication
> signal
> line and a steam trainline. So, equipment converted like this should be
> listed somewhere by the N&W.
>
> I found information on Class Ef box express cars No. 220 - 228 and 230 -
> 239 in N&W Motive Power Data Book No. 1. These are the only box express
> cars listed in the two copies of Data Book No. 1 that I checked. One
> copy
> is dated Aug. 15, 1951 and the other is dated April 1, 1953, so these
> bracket the listed date of August Thieme's photo, Dec. 6, 1952.
>
> Both copies of Data Book No. 1 have the same information for the Class Ef
> cars, viz., No. 220 - 228 "Roanoke Shops 1929," and No. 230 - 239
> "Converted from BSb box car 1941." So, these must have been the cars in
> service
> when Thieme took his photo. Incidentally, the Class BSb box cars had
> "Dreadnaught" corrugated ends similar to the ends visible in the photo.
>
> Gordon Hamilton
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: _NW Mailing List_ (mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org)
> To: _nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org_ (mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org)
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
>
>
> A Google search took me to the OGR Forum, where someone pointed out that
> per the NWHS web site, N&W had converted some B-8 boxcars to express
> service. If you look closely at the end corrugations of the first car,
> it screams
> "Pullman PS-1" at you, i.e. B-8. However, a quick look through my
> reference materials yielded no details, listing of cars converted, or
> installation
> of passenger air brake systems. So, that's about all I can contribute -
> hopefully others have more information.
>
> Dave Phelps
>
>
> In a message dated 5/20/2011 7:43:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:
>
>
> Can someone enlighten me as to what class of box car is seen in the
> following photo behind the K1 locomotive?
>
> _http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=5556_
> (http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=5556)
>
> What color they may they have been painted?
>
> Jimmy Lisle
>
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 23:07:22 EDT
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Message-ID: <a3f0e.107ab474.3b0b296a at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dick:
>
> What has us (well, me, anyway...) confused is that all the N&W reference
> materials list Ef's as going up through 239, and having the traditional
> passenger baggage car-style door. (Photos show the shorter height that
> Jim
> mentions below AND a higher door that may have been an earlier design.)
> Were
> some BSb's left with boxcar-style doors? Were additional BSb's converted
> just enough to run on passenger trains? Lots of questions, not quite as
> many answers. In these areas I'm only as knowledgeable as my references;
> thank goodness for people like Jim to provide guidance.
>
> Dave Phelps
>
>
> In a message dated 5/22/2011 9:52:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:
>
> There is a 1995 photo of a modified Ef 220 on page 5 of Jim Nichols' N&W
> Color Guide. The caption also states that Class Eg (230-239) were
> converted
> from BSb boxcars in 1942.
>
> Dick Dunford
> Blacksburg, VA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: _NW Mailing List_ (mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org)
> To: _NW Mailing List_ (mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org)
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
>
>
>
> This photo is on page 24 of the Thieme book. These are not Class Ef box
> express cars; those cars had an inset door, like a baggage car, that
> opened
> by sliding it inside the body; additionally, the doors were shorter in
> height and there was a section of the side that was "solid" above the
> door
> opening. Here is a link:
> _http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1715.jpeg_
> (http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1715.jpeg)
> The cars in the Thieme photo are definetely freight boxcars that have
> been
> converted for passenger train service. These are not Class B-8 boxcars;
> the B-8 cars had an 8-foot wide door and clearly these are 6-foot wide
> doors.
> I believe these are Class BSb boxcars; here is an image of the Class BS
> boxcars:
> _http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3230.JPG_
> (http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/F1/NS3230.JPG)
> At some point, these cars were rebuilt; some were made single door cars
> with a door opening of 6-foot and reclassified BSb. The info I have
> suggests
> the original class was built in 1927-28 time frame. The Railroad Spec -
> Bill of Materials is No. 373 and a General Arrangement Drawiing of
> G-27252.
> The BSb class is what I believe to be represented in the Thieme photo.
> As Gordon has pointed out, cars in passenger service require different
> equipment. My "guess" is these cars were excess boxcars that were
> modified to
> run in passenger service; they were pressed into service as mail storage
> cars and used during the Christmas season. Remember, in the 1950s, there
> was no UPS or FedEx; and the REA relied on the railroads as well.
> Another
> "guess" is that once converted, these cars were simply stored when not
> needed. Perhaps somewhere in the Archives there is documentation of this
> conversion.
> The B-8 cars were virtually brand new when this photo was taken by Mr.
> Thieme. The N&W would not have made extensive changes to a new car for a
> temporary service. There were some cars, classed B-8A I believe, that
> were in
> dedicated LCL service.
> Jim Brewer
> Glenwood MD
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:33:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
>
> Dave,
>
> Here are a few comments that others may be able to augment. First, I'm
> not convinced that the two box-express cars are B8's. Second, whatever
> they
> are, in order to operate in a passenger train they would have to be
> equipped with a passenger-type air brake control valve, a communication
> signal
> line and a steam trainline. So, equipment converted like this should be
> listed somewhere by the N&W.
>
> I found information on Class Ef box express cars No. 220 - 228 and 230 -
> 239 in N&W Motive Power Data Book No. 1. These are the only box express
> cars listed in the two copies of Data Book No. 1 that I checked. One
> copy
> is dated Aug. 15, 1951 and the other is dated April 1, 1953, so these
> bracket the listed date of August Thieme's photo, Dec. 6, 1952.
>
> Both copies of Data Book No. 1 have the same information for the Class Ef
> cars, viz., No. 220 - 228 "Roanoke Shops 1929," and No. 230 - 239 "Conv
> erted from BSb box car 1941." So, these must have been the cars in
> service
> when Thieme took his photo. Incidentally, the Class BSb box cars had
> "Dreadnaught" corrugated ends similar to the ends visible in the photo.
>
> Gordon Hamilton
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: _NW Mailing List_ (mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org)
> To: _nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org_ (mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org)
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Express Boxcar ?
>
>
> A Google search took me to the OGR Forum, where someone pointed out that
> per the NWHS web site, N&W had converted some B-8 boxcars to express
> service. If you look closely at the end corrugations of the first car,
> it screams
> "Pullman PS-1" at you, i.e. B-8. However, a quick look through my
> reference materials yielded no details, listing of cars converted, or
> installation
> of passenger air brake systems. So, that's about all I can contribute -
> hopefully others have more information.
>
> Dave Phelps
>
>
> In a message dated 5/20/2011 7:43:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org writes:
>
>
> Can someone enlighten me as to what class of box car is seen in the
> following photo behind the K1 locomotive?
>
> _http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=5556_
> (http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=5556)
>
> What color they may they have been painted?
>
> Jimmy Lisle
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> NW-Mailing-List at nwhs.org
> To change your subscription go to
> http://list.nwhs.org/mailman/options/nw-mailing-list
> Browse the NW-Mailing-List archives at
> http://list.nwhs.org/pipermail/nw-mailing-list/
>
>
>
> ____________________________________
> ________________________________________
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> To change your subscription go to
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>
> ____________________________________
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - _www.avg.com_ (http://www.avg.com/)
> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1509/3649 - Release Date: 05/20/11
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