EXTERNAL: Re: Union Terminal Imports Pulman 10-6 Sleeping Car Project

Wed Apr 17 13:20:55 EDT 2019

Eric,
First and foremost I have never said anything detrimental about Howard. I know Howard and respect, admire and relish his knowledge, experience and huge skills at modeling and with brass. Howard has himself said he feels brass is an art. I'm aware of his magnificent layout and know his locomotives and much rolling stock is brass. I know he's quite the operator and believer in running his brass as well. That was never doubted or did I ever say anything negative about that aspect of Howard.
I HAVE NEVER ACCUSED HIM OF ANYTHING! I don't know how you can say I accused him of anything. I merely said what he has said and posted in the MR forums and elsewhere. Please don't start up any threads like that about me. I LIKE Howard and his opinion matters to me. George Kohs is a respected and honorable guy in the same mold. I own none of his products but have seen, admired and drooled over them. Another "class act" in the hobby.
Yes, the hobby has gotten expensive. Fortunately it's a hobby and we have the option of buying or not.  I buy a lot of brass. My first brass engine was a PFM Ma&Pa Heavy 2-8-0 #43 at $84.50. I was in the Navy and made $104 a month. That was a huge purchase for me...................but I wanted it with a wild passion! I don't buy brass cars normally, freight or passenger,because I don't like the weight and often poor running qualities they possess. That's just my preference. If you want an $841 10-6.........then more power to you but I'll pass. I don't condemn anyone who's in that place in his quest for modeling. I just don't have enough interest in passenger trains to go the whole hog with working diaphragms, lighting, full interiors and incorrect paint jobs. I prefer to spend my money on brass locomotives but I do go far enough to want a matching and accurate caboose for each one.
I have worked with importers over the years and have found most to not care if they are doing things accurately. That's MY experience...........I'm not condemning anyone just saying what I have experienced. One importer was going to bring in a set of engines that were very similar but each unique in its own right. When pointed out the differences he told me "it doesn't matter as they will buy them anyway". Well after a lot of discussion he finally did them as individually detailed engines and they sold like crazy and bring large prices on feebay and other places. That's just one instance. I sometimes think they (importers and manufacturers of plastic stuff) don't know much and don't research before committing to a project. Just ask and you will get the info you need.
Importers have the right to price their products where they need to even if that seems high or too high to us. They DO have to make a profit and after being in the hobby on both sides of the counter for over 55 years I have to say I know quite a few very wealthy folks in the business and modelers..........and none of them made that money by making and selling hobby items though as far as I know. Like I said about my first brass engine it cost most of my monthly salary but looking at it now my monthly income is considerably more than $104 every month. Everything is expensive but it's all in what you want. If one chooses to be part of your 5% and buy these cars then good for you! I'm glad to see these products and to see someone who wants them. I hope all the importers break even, or better, make a profit while making modelers smile. 
I think what we need is for more plastic companies to offer needed items. The general consensus is the high cost of research/development/manufacturing plastic cars prevents making a profit. I think that's bunk! How, then, can so many different manufacturers produce F-7A units, RS-3's, USRA Mikes, Challengers and Pig Boys over and over again? Where are the other needed items? The trend is limited production runs of everything so why not a limited run of N&W M 4-8-0's to just point out one example?
Anyway, enough on this subject. Buy 'em if you want 'em and leave them on the shelves if you don't want to spend the bucks. Enjoy the hobby and whine into your pillows if you can't take it! 
Just don't misunderstand what I said and misquote me, please!
My 2¢
Roger HuberDeer Creek Locomotive Works 

    On Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 11:10:10 AM CD and it's fairly commensurate with the prices of my needed hobby items. T, NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:  

Roger:

I don’t think that Howard Zane would let your characterization of his thinking about brass go without rebuttal.  You quote him accurately as having said that “Brass is art”, but I doubt there is a brass engine he has ever owned without running it around his layout—and that’s probably several thousand engines, from Reading 0-4-0’s to Erie Angus 0-8-8-0’s and beyond, and that heregularly operates all the ones he has decided to keep for himself.  I can also attest that he has much brass rolling stock that transits his layout regularly.  And anybody who has a pair of painted OMI Ogle Coaling Towers embedded in a single scene (and a background scene at that) of his layout cannot be accused of failure to fully commit brass structures to service in model railroading.

You have accused the one person in the universe who is theperfect counter-example of reticence in operating brass models!  I suspect he would rather be quoted as having said, “Brass is fully functional art, and its functionality is as intrinsic to its appeal as art as its appearance is.”

I also suspect that George Kohs would roll his eyes at this whole thread.  He produces exquisite models (far more accurate and detailed than anything produced to date in HO scale), and puts DCC into every one of them in the expectation that their buyers (who are shelling out $5000 - $7500 per locomotive model) will operate them.  You guys should ALL know this, since he has produced models of Y-6b’s, A’s and Alleghenys that are probably the high water mark of model fidelity for all of time (except for the Fine Art Models’ creations, which company he also co-founded, and whose models not infrequently bring >$15000 in the used market.)

OK, $800 is a lot of jack for one passenger car.  So is $110 for a plastic Rapido model of a New Haven parlor car.  Both may be truly excellent models.  (I have to admit that the Rapido Merchant’s Limited cars are as detailed and good looking as my Railway Classics ML cars.)  Realistically, a string of even $110 passenger cars is affordable only by people in the top 5% income bracket in the world, so we model railroaders must be doing pretty well in the grand scheme of things.  

Complaining that importers are setting retail prices at $800 seems silly to me.  There’s apparently a market for passenger cars at that price, and the importers are addressing that market.  Should the rest of us resent them because we’re not in the top 0.5% income bracket in the world? 

If so, then how should the 95-percenters look at the rest of us?

-Eric Bott

From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org]On Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 08:32
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Cc: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: Union Terminal Imports Pulman 10-6 Sleeping Car Project

Stephan,

That was a quote from someone else even though I believe the vast majority of $800 rolling stock doesn't get operated. My engine roster is almost totally brass and is operated. My rolling stock, other than cabooses, is mostly plastic or resin. I don't normally spend that much on brass cars unless it's something I really need that isn't available. It's often too heavy and they generally don't roll as well as plastic cars.

It's not out of fear of them getting scratched due to derailments or anything other than I just can't justify spending $800 for a car. I think there's a larger group of folks who believe as Howard Zane that brass is "art" and not for the operator any longer and these folks are driving this movement resulting in higher prices too.

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 5:51:45 AM CDT, NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote: 

Roger Said -“Someone said they are for the collector and not the operator or casual fan and he hit it right on the head.”

Actually this statement is not true as I for one and know of others who run their brass.

I have never had a derailment with my Overland Powhatan Arrow and have run my brass locomotives with no difficulties.

I have several brass pieces on my layout as I speak and am running my UTI Banner Blue cars with their brass N&W E8.

The last statistic is that 80% of all purchased models never leave the box.

Stephen Rineair

From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>On Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 11:15 AM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Cc: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: Re: Union Terminal Imports Pulman 10-6 Sleeping Car Project

I agree with Jim about the prices. When DP brought out their N&W cars I tried to buy them unpainted as being a painter I prefer my own stuff and can't live with the common mistakes importers throw out there. He was sort of rude about it. After they came out and I saw the prices I was floored. I'm a confirmed brass buyer but there's a limit. When the cost of a car is greater than my house payment I just have to draw the line. Then I saw all the mistakes and for that price (or any price) they were inexcusable blunders. All the information needed is readily available and free to produce something accurate.

And now, here comes UTI with an $800+ price tag. Someone said they are for the collector and not the operator or casual fan and he hit it right on the head.

There's always the discussion on recouping the costs of building/importing something and I do understand but companies need to understand they can also price products way out of the normal modelers reach as here.

I remember many, many years ago when Roanoke Rails came out with the S-1. I bought 2 at $135 each and took gas when I wrote the check! They were well worth it though and are gorgeous. 

Thankfully MTH came out with their PA set and individual cars and we always have the Sunset PA sets now at a more reasonable price than years ago. For the adventurous there are always the AMB and NKP car sides. I guess it's time to assemble my Branchline Pg car kits!

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:03:50 AM CDT, NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote: 

Roger: You are absolutely correct when it comes to DP. He does not take criticism well and that is an understatement.

He also does not listen to corrections or suggestions for the greater good for selling  his models.

His N&W Passenger models color schemes are horrendous. DP is not considered a “high end brass” model importer but has high end prices  with a lot of model mistakes.

Most say Buyer Beware!

Stephen Rineair

From: NW-Modeling-List <nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>On Behalf Of NW Modeling List via NW-Modeling-List
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2019 5:54 PM
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Cc: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: Re: Union Terminal Imports Pulman 10-6 Sleeping Car Project

I apologize for my comments. They wee in reference to the N&W cars imported by Division Point. I haven't personally seen anything done by UTI so retract the reference to their products.

The DP cars, on the other hand had some mistakes when it comes to painting and striping. I mentioned it to them but they didn't receive it well. "Don't buy them then!" isn't what I expected from someone importing cars with such a high price tag when the information is readily available and FREE.

Again, I didn't mean anything negative about UTI. I have only heard good comments on their products and wish them well. I also wish I could afford the new generation of passenger cars. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have some Pg coaches at a reasonable price?

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

On Monday, April 15, 2019, 3:31:32 PM CDT, NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

Roger:

Have you contacted ED at UTI that there was a problem is the Stripping or have you contacted the Modeling committee to see if they are on top of the problems with the cars so that they are corrected?

Stephen Rineair

Hopefully they will also do them correctly striped, etc as compared to their previous N&W cars. Any chance of getting McDowell County in IC colors too?

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

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