EXTERNAL: Re: Passenger Car Roof Colors

Thu Jun 14 08:14:00 EDT 2018

Jim Brewer:

Thank you so much for poking into this question.  I find it interesting that the color of a particular brand of roofing cement would be allowed to determine the color palette of N&W’s passenger equipment prior to 1950.

Oddly, this is not the first time I’ve heard a rationale like this.  I had to choose roofing color for several IT electric loco models this past year, and heard the as-shopped color described as “terra cotta”.  I suspect that’s PRECISELY what it was—a roofing compound that was colored to look like terra cotta specifically so that it would blend in with roofing tiles of that material.  Later, the IT used an aluminum colored compound that I suspect was also a roofing compound.  And, as you and Jim Nichols predicted, even these colors rapidly turned black in operation—I suspect from fine coal dust that came off hopper cars, rather than soot, in the case of the IC’s electric locos.

Although I agree with you and Jim Nichols that it’s likely that whatever brown there was would quickly have taken on a black appearance in the environment behind a steam loco, I have always chosen to not weather my rolling stock.  (I’m a mechanical engineer by training, and just admire the products of the thinking of my predecessors in their finest hour.  Not authentic, but pleasing to me.)

I like the idea of starting with an iron oxide color, and adding a drop of black, and maybe a drop or two of cream, at a time until the mix “looks right”.  Annoying as this degree of imprecision is, the color record of railroad equipment is simply deplorable—even into the 1950s, when stable color film was reasonably available.  I have found it impossible, for example, to accurately determine the true greens used in the IC’s articulated original Green Diamond train.  Eyewitness accounts do not use color words that I would apply to Overland’s “custom painted” models, but they have become the de facto standards.  (Not that, in current times of Benjamin Moore’s and Sherwin Williams’ fanciful designer names for colors, we have any right to expect better—but the eyewitness descriptions of “cedar green” and “cypress green” make me very suspicious of OMI’s choices—especially since their painting spec called for black truck side frames, which is provably wrong.)

It’s a bit sad to acknowledge that when one does a web search for photos of specific pieces of railroad equipment prior to 1950, far more than half the “hits” are photos of models, rather than of their prototypes.  It is truly the case that our modeling work (accurate or not) is becoming the historical record for earlier railroad equipment.  That’s a heavy responsibility, and I admire both Jims for taking it seriously!

Best Regards, and Thank You again,

-Eric Bott

From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 15:57
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: Passenger Car Roof Colors

Eric,

I have a copy of N&W Railway Co. Specification No. 232-0, dated January 10, 1947, titled "Specification for Painting Steel Passenger Equipment Cars;" regarding the roof, it indicates:

"The roof is be cleaned the same as rest of car and primed with Zinc Chromate Primer. After priming is dry, apply three (3) coats of Flood & Conklin's Elastic Roof Composition, used straight as it comes for the barrel, without any thinning. Allow not less than forty-eight hours between coats for drying. All ventilators and hoods on roof to receive one heavy coat of Car Cement after all other coats applied"

Also, a letter dated May 4, 1954 from C. E. Pond, General Superintendent of Motive Power, to B. Cook, Superintendent of Shops, references an earlier letter by Pond to Cook dated April 23 (I don't have that), says:

"...at that time you were instruct4ed to apply Mortex No. 4 or Dednox to the roofs of passenger cars at such time as they required repainting. The present paint should be completely removed, but no primer should be applied prior to the application of the Mortex or Dednox."

A quick google search on Flood & Conklin brings up a mid-1960's Supreme Court decision, but I could not find anything else about the business; a google search on Elastic Roof Composition produced result that if I interpret correctly, suggest the product used per the 1947 paint specs was a tar like substance; of course, I don't know what color it was; even if it was brown, it would have darkened fairly quickly on roofs of passenger equipment pulled by steam power.

Regarding the use of "car cement," all references I have seen to it as applied to steam era freight cars indicate is was black in color.

By 1954, it is obvious Mortex or Dednox is the standard roof application, but no longer to applied over a primer.

Depending on what era you model you could certainly have a mix of brown and black roofed passenger equipment; of course, as you get into the late 1950s and early 60s, most would probably be black.  I have always used a roof brown color with a drop or two of grimey black added.

Hope this helps.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 1:09 PM, NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>> wrote:
Is there any rhyme or reason to N&W passenger roof paint colors?  How would I decide whether to paint one brown (or whatever the non-black color was) vs black on any given model during the Tuscan side color era?

And what Scalecoat paint (or mix) best represents that brown (or whatever it was)?

Thank you!

-Eric Bott

-----Original Message-----
From: NW-Modeling-List [mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list-bounces at nwhs.org>] On Behalf Of NW Modeling List
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 09:13
To: NW Modeling List <nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org<mailto:nw-modeling-list at nwhs.org>>
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: HO Herald King Hopper Decals

That sounds like good advice, Todd. I'd very much like to see your photos.

It sounds like Herald King has me taken care of as far as the decals are concerned for now, but I really like this scheme and I may choose to do more later.

Safe travels, Todd!

Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, Texas

On 6/11/2018 9:47 PM, NW Modeling List wrote:
> Ryan,
>
> I believe that I have a couple extra sets of the Claytor scheme decal
> sets that I can part with. I'm in Arizona for the balance of the week
> and will check when I arrive home. Just remind me in a week or so by
> sending an email to arnett at nwhs.org<mailto:arnett at nwhs.org>
>
> As for placing the proper decals in the proper place, I submit what a
> friend of mine that works for NS  a few years back: "Nothing is
> consistent on the railroad despite what a drawing states".
> Nonetheless,  I would be more that happy to send you photos of my
> Bowser H11X series hoppers that I lettered in this scheme.
>
> Until then, happy modeling.
>
> Todd Arnett
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