Mainline hopper movements Re: Mine runs

[NW Mailing List]

Grant,
Should I forget to say it explicitly in any of my messages, know that I am
always grateful to you for sharing your knowledge.  OK, it is the start of
a normal working day in the mid 1950s in Bluefield.  A "pool" run (was that
how they were referred to?) is assembled with a long string of empties
bookended by power.  Was the power Ys?  Were there 2?  Was one running in
reverse?  Since I assume most pool yards had two switches off the main,
what was the reason for using locomotives with opposite facings?
Jim Cochran

On Mon, Nov 24, 2025 at 6:32 AM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
wrote:

> Jim,
>
> That's right, there was a pool of road crews based in each main terminal,
> Elkhorn Pool in Bluefield and Tug River Pool in Williamson, that hauled
> empties (when available) to storage points and returned with loads from
> storage points. Mine runs only had to move empties and loads between
> tipples and the nearest storage point. Those points on the main line from
> Bluefield west to Iaeger included: Mullins Middle, Flat Top Yard, Bluestone
> (River Track), Angle Branch, Morgan Storage, North Fork Hollow/Elk Ridge
> Storage, Byrd Yard, Eckman Yard, Vivian (Kimball Yard), Cirrus Storage,
> Huger Middle, Superior #3 Outlet, Tug Storage, Farm Storage, Caples Outlet,
> Davy Storage, Twin Branch Storage, Claren Storage and Hull Middle (the
> limit of Elkhorn crews). Branchline yards served by pool runs included
> Clift, Wilcoe and Auville.
>
> As I mentioned earlier, operation limits, variations and exceptions were
> typical; however, to your last point, I agree it is a good idea to limit my
> posts to the specific questions and limit details, so feel free to follow
> up.
>
> Grant Carpenter
>
> On 11/22/2025 2:44 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> Grant et al.
> Thank you so much for your responses, I will keep asking as long as you
> keep answering :-)
> From the Pokey's point of view, empties magically appeared in huge strings
> at Bluefield and Williamson, and needed to be distributed to every mining
> operation.  What I think I just put together from Grant's response (please
> correct me on anything/everything) is there was a distribution hierarchy of
> runs to keep everyone supplied.  Those big "mainline" runs that I started
> with in my first post, would start their runs "all empty" and set off cuts
> at what I will call distribution points (yards) while picking up loads from
> these large holding facilities.  The ones that come to my mind are Flat
> Top, Cliff, Byrd, Eckman, Vivian/Kimball, and I get foggier as I go West of
> my primary area of interest.  Mike you probably know the ones around
> Iaeger, so please chime in.  Is there a comprehensive list?  The mainline
> run would, at some point have set off all its empties and picked up a full
> train of loads and head back to its terminal of origin be it Bluefield or
> Williamson.  How am I doing so far?  I am going to keep my posts somewhat
> short so as to try to concentrate on a limited aspect at a time to help
> keep things straight, at least for me.
> Thanks,
> Jim Cochran
>
> On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 8:53 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> My apologies for the late arrival.
>>
>> What Chris states didn't change much from the steam era when there were
>> more runs to more tipples. Every run was different, in part, because, "the
>> type of moves really varied from one coal operation to the next." Some
>> tipples were stub-end (Crumpler), but most were run-arounds with an inlet
>> switch above the tipple and an outlet below. Typically, empties rolled by
>> gravity from the delivery tracks down to the tipple tracks for loading,
>> then down to the outlet tracks.
>>
>> Especially on the East End, significant grades were a constant for every
>> job, so the (one) engine was dispatched running forward if there was a turn
>> on the run, otherwise it was dispatched facing upgrade. Some runs took all
>> of their empties, others some or none, and picked them up along the way at
>> storage points where mainline runs had set off empties and picked up loads
>> the previous night. And picking up their empties could vary day to day, by
>> location, by the numbers, and from one extreme to the other.
>>
>> At various points, the engine could be pulling empties or shoving them
>> ahead, depending on run-around opportunities and switch arrangements ahead.
>> Loads stayed next to the engine and could be on both ends. The crew would
>> have the adjacent main track for however much time, pending superior
>> movements. Even branchline shifters had a passenger run to consider. For
>> example, your North Fork job routinely made *three* different runs up
>> the branch per shift because of a mix of facing- and trailing-point moves
>> at various tipples that totaled a million tons per year, and all while
>> dodging the passenger run.
>>
>> Then there was the nearby Keystone tipple on the main line that rated
>> almost a million tons a year by itself. Seems easier than the North Fork
>> Branch, except that the tipple was jammed into a bend in the hollow such
>> that the delivery track capacity was only about 35 cars. Every local job in
>> the area was on call to work it, including the North Fork Branch passenger
>> job between runs. Picture a Class M working a huge tipple on the main line.
>> In 1950.
>>
>> And this was just in the Greater Northfork area of special interest to
>> you. The variety that makes Pocahontas Division operations difficult to
>> characterize in broad generalizations is what can make it so interesting to
>> model. On multiple levels, no two jobs were the same and no two days were
>> the same. So answers to many questions may depend on specific jobs and/or
>> locations. Ask away and we will answer best we can (soon as we can). More
>> to come.
>>
>> Grant Carpenter
>>
>> On 11/17/2025 4:14 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>> During my era of dispatching, the type of moves really varied from one
>> coal operation to the next. We typically referred to the mine runs as
>> “shifters”.  A “turn crew” was usually a mainline crew that was designated
>> as a “one day job” which meant that regardless of where they went on a
>> train or in a taxi they would terminate back in their original home
>> terminal at the end of their shift.
>>
>> Regarding the directional status of locomotives, during my career the
>> setup of a consist to have a short hood in each direction became more and
>> more an expectation.  I didn’t have too many mine operations that were
>> worked with a single locomotive in a traditional “deliver empties then pull
>> loads” operating plan.
>>
>> At the operations where this was the case, most crews would choose to
>> handle empties with long hood lead and the much heavier loads coming back
>> out with short hood lead on their engine for better visibility.  If the
>> operation happened to be near a “wye”, it was not uncommon to turn the
>> engine after delivering empties before pulling the loads to maintain a
>> short hood lead for any move where they were handling cars.
>>
>> My guess is that turning the engine like this was much less prevalent in
>> the eras of steam and high hood diesels with dual controls.  I’m interested
>> in what Grant’s input will be on this for the steam era.
>>
>> Thank Ya’n Out,
>> Chris Dalton
>> Bluefield, WV
>>
>> On Nov 17, 2025, at 11:26 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>> Only one engine. If there was no way to turn the engine for the return
>> trip, the engine ran backwards out of the terminal.
>>
>> Jimmy Lisle
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> Date: 11/17/25 9:07 AM
>> Subject: loco motions
>>
>> If I am remembering correctly the things I have read heard in the past
>> indicate that a mine servicing run (was this called a turn?) in the part of
>> the Pokey in which I am most interested, would begin with a train
>> comprising a string of empty hoppers sandwiched between a couple
>> locomotives, one of which was facing West while the other faced East.
>>
>> From my meager understanding, there were two typical track arrangements
>> for tipple sidings. They both began with a turnout off the main line
>> followed by additional turnouts whose number varied according to things
>> like the number of sized of coal produced, storage track configuration,
>> run-around track, re-connection to the main, etc.
>>
>> In one example, a coal operation would have only one turnout on the main.
>> This would necessitate one of locomotives with a cut of empties to cut off
>> from the rest of the (?turn/job/movement?) and move the empties into the
>> mine trackage. Did the rest of the train remain on the main in the rain
>> blocking other traffic? Also, was there a preference for whether the
>> servicing unit proceeded moving forward or in reverse for this part of the
>> operation? If there were no run-around track at the mine, the locomotive
>> would have to push his empties past the tipple for gravity feeding
>> purposes, cut them loose after sufficient brakes had been set, move back
>> down to where this mine's loads had been stored, couple up, move this
>> string down to the main, reattach to the rest of the turn and move on down
>> to the next operation.
>>
>> This account contains much conjecture on my part, and my purpose is to
>> learn how things really worked such as when those locomotives were run
>> forward and when they ran in reverse along with other specifics of the
>> operations along my most beloved portion of the Pokey.
>>
>> If this is of interest to others or I get response (Grant, hint, hint), I
>> will follow up with additional questions and conjecture.
>>
>> Jim Cochran
>>
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