Mine runs Re: loco motions

[NW Mailing List]

Jim,

My apologies for the late arrival.

What Chris states didn't change much from the steam era when there were 
more runs to more tipples. Every run was different, in part, because, 
"the type of moves really varied from one coal operation to the next." 
Some tipples were stub-end (Crumpler), but most were run-arounds with an 
inlet switch above the tipple and an outlet below. Typically, empties 
rolled by gravity from the delivery tracks down to the tipple tracks for 
loading, then down to the outlet tracks.

Especially on the East End, significant grades were a constant for every 
job, so the (one) engine was dispatched running forward if there was a 
turn on the run, otherwise it was dispatched facing upgrade. Some runs 
took all of their empties, others some or none, and picked them up along 
the way at storage points where mainline runs had set off empties and 
picked up loads the previous night. And picking up their empties could 
vary day to day, by location, by the numbers, and from one extreme to 
the other.

At various points, the engine could be pulling empties or shoving them 
ahead, depending on run-around opportunities and switch arrangements 
ahead. Loads stayed next to the engine and could be on both ends. The 
crew would have the adjacent main track for however much time, pending 
superior movements. Even branchline shifters had a passenger run to 
consider. For example, your North Fork job routinely made *three* 
different runs up the branch per shift because of a mix of facing- and 
trailing-point moves at various tipples that totaled a million tons per 
year, and all while dodging the passenger run.

Then there was the nearby Keystone tipple on the main line that rated 
almost a million tons a year by itself. Seems easier than the North Fork 
Branch, except that the tipple was jammed into a bend in the hollow such 
that the delivery track capacity was only about 35 cars. Every local job 
in the area was on call to work it, including the North Fork Branch 
passenger job between runs. Picture a Class M working a huge tipple on 
the main line. In 1950.

And this was just in the Greater Northfork area of special interest to 
you. The variety that makes Pocahontas Division operations difficult to 
characterize in broad generalizations is what can make it so interesting 
to model. On multiple levels, no two jobs were the same and no two days 
were the same. So answers to many questions may depend on specific jobs 
and/or locations. Ask away and we will answer best we can (soon as we 
can). More to come.

Grant Carpenter

On 11/17/2025 4:14 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
> Jim,
> During my era of dispatching, the type of moves really varied from one 
> coal operation to the next. We typically referred to the mine runs as 
> “shifters”.  A “turn crew” was usually a mainline crew that was 
> designated as a “one day job” which meant that regardless of where 
> they went on a train or in a taxi they would terminate back in their 
> original home terminal at the end of their shift.
>
> Regarding the directional status of locomotives, during my career the 
> setup of a consist to have a short hood in each direction became more 
> and more an expectation.  I didn’t have too many mine operations that 
> were worked with a single locomotive in a traditional “deliver empties 
> then pull loads” operating plan.
>
> At the operations where this was the case, most crews would choose to 
> handle empties with long hood lead and the much heavier loads coming 
> back out with short hood lead on their engine for better visibility. 
>  If the operation happened to be near a “wye”, it was not uncommon to 
> turn the engine after delivering empties before pulling the loads to 
> maintain a short hood lead for any move where they were handling cars.
>
> My guess is that turning the engine like this was much less prevalent 
> in the eras of steam and high hood diesels with dual controls.  I’m 
> interested in what Grant’s input will be on this for the steam era.
>
> Thank Ya’n Out,
> Chris Dalton
> Bluefield, WV
>> On Nov 17, 2025, at 11:26 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>> Jim,
>> Only one engine. If there was no way to turn the engine for the 
>> return trip, the engine ran backwards out of the terminal.
>>
>> Jimmy Lisle
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> Date: 11/17/25 9:07 AM
>> Subject: loco motions
>>
>> If I am remembering correctly the things I have read heard in the 
>> past indicate that a mine servicing run (was this called a turn?) in 
>> the part of the Pokey in which I am most interested, would begin with 
>> a train comprising a string of empty hoppers sandwiched between a 
>> couple locomotives, one of which was facing West while the other 
>> faced East.
>>
>> From my meager understanding, there were two typical track 
>> arrangements for tipple sidings. They both began with a turnout off 
>> the main line followed by additional turnouts whose number varied 
>> according to things like the number of sized of coal produced, 
>> storage track configuration, run-around track, re-connection to the 
>> main, etc.
>>
>> In one example, a coal operation would have only one turnout on the 
>> main. This would necessitate one of locomotives with a cut of empties 
>> to cut off from the rest of the (?turn/job/movement?) and move the 
>> empties into the mine trackage. Did the rest of the train remain on 
>> the main in the rain blocking other traffic? Also, was there a 
>> preference for whether the servicing unit proceeded moving forward or 
>> in reverse for this part of the operation? If there were no 
>> run-around track at the mine, the locomotive would have to push his 
>> empties past the tipple for gravity feeding purposes, cut them loose 
>> after sufficient brakes had been set, move back down to where this 
>> mine's loads had been stored, couple up, move this string down to the 
>> main, reattach to the rest of the turn and move on down to the next 
>> operation.
>>
>> This account contains much conjecture on my part, and my purpose is 
>> to learn how things really worked such as when those locomotives were 
>> run forward and when they ran in reverse along with other specifics 
>> of the operations along my most beloved portion of the Pokey.
>>
>> If this is of interest to others or I get response (Grant, hint, 
>> hint), I will follow up with additional questions and conjecture.
>>
>> Jim Cochran
>>
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