Diverging signals Re: Vera Jct

Sun Jun 29 10:21:29 EDT 2025

OK, I have looked at more pictures/maps of the East end of Bluefield yard
and it appears that the signals in question are associated with a
crossover(s) between the mains before you get to the highway bridge.  This
plant appears to be un-signaled from the Westbound side and there don't
appear to be any other turnouts until you hit Blake.  Does anybody know why
the crossover would not need to be signaled coming in off the (is it
Radford or Christiansburg District)?  Also, can someone provide information
on the changes to crossover and general arrangement here over the years?
How long ago was it changed to a single crossover?  What were the tracks
that crossed over the mains at one point?
Thanks,
Jim Cochran

On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
wrote:

> David,
>
> Looks familiar, where is this? The lower rank of the signal contributes to
> its aspect, indicating a siding. The siding's speed restriction could be as
> low as that of the turnout by Rule 105, or even lower by Employee Time
> Table. This is an example of variations and exceptions that I
> hedged/weaseled about in my first reply.
>
> Grant Carpenter
>
>
>
> On 6/24/2025 5:39 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> I'd love to know what is causing that there, a trailing point spring
> switch, not having medium approach medium, .... Idk
>
> You can give clear in the nominal case like this. I only had 3 photos on
> hand.
>
> David Baker
>
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2025, 3:17 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>> With apologies, I'll attempt a reply to your original post with some
>> specifics.
>>
>> Diverging indications notify an engine crew of a speed restriction due to
>> one or more turnouts ahead. By 1951, anyway, N&W Operating Rule 105 (b)
>> simply stated that unless otherwise provided, speed is restricted to 25MPH
>> for passenger trains and 15MPH for other trains or engines when using
>> turnouts or crossovers. As Jimmy stated, exceptions were noted in ETTs and
>> could vary a lot, for example, between the Radford and Pocahontas Divisions.
>>
>> So, diverging aspects are applied to signals in both directions "through"
>> the turnout's slower/secondary route. BTW, the N&W's CPL version is not
>> included in the earlier Rule 283 examples below. The three diverging
>> indications are shown here, starting with the distant/advance signal
>> indication Approach Diverging:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This is an eastbound at Vera Jct. on the Cincinnati line approaching the
>> turnout on the eastbound main from Columbus, shown in the lower-right
>> corner. I can't recall specifics as to what other signals are here
>> (bi-directional? both directions? etc.) in this time frame and with which
>> aspects.
>>
>> So, what's with the term "medium" and the N&W?
>>
>> I don't know. I've asked around, and this came up here on the List
>> several years ago. As of 1951, it appeared in two contexts within N&W
>> signal rules:
>>
>> In the signal indication description of Rule 285 – Approach, the term
>> "medium speed" appeared: "Proceed preparing to stop at next signal. Train
>> exceeding medium speed must at once reduce to that speed." It appeared in
>> the Operating Rules Definitions as half the max authorized speed, but not
>> to exceed 30MPH.
>>
>> In the name of the three "diverging" indication rules, "medium" replaced
>> "diverging," e.g., Diverging Clear became Medium Clear. However, the term
>> "prescribed speed" was used in the rule descriptions per Rule 105 (b) above
>> – not medium speed.
>>
>> Neither usage appeared to have much, if any, direct relevance, and the
>> ambiguity seemed to be acknowledged later, because by the 1981 Rule Book,
>> both instances were deleted. "Medium" was changed back to "Diverging" for
>> indication names, and the reference to "medium speed" was removed from the
>> Approach Rule description and the term was removed from the Rules
>> Definitions.
>>
>> Hope this helps, just my take; edits, thoughts and questions welcome.
>>
>> Grant Carpenter
>>
>> On 6/19/2025 7:55 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>
>> All signal fans,
>> I just found this definition/explanation for what a "diverging" route can
>> be interpreted to be and it covers the case at Vera:
>> One of these days I hope to understand to signal a railroad.
>> Jim Cochran
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 8:47 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The operating book rules calls out the AAR rules in my '51 and '45 rule
>>> book. That is speed signaling, although if you look at the rules as written
>>> they do a bad job explaining that. The only thing that usually drove medium
>>> speed was a diverging route in a turnout.
>>>
>>> Is there another facing point turnout ahead?
>>>
>>> David Baker
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2025, 6:44 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Grant,
>>>> Thanks for the reply and great seeing you at the con as well.  Your
>>>> answer caused me to dig more deeply into the history of N&W
>>>> aspects/indications and in particular the horizontal arm over vertical arm
>>>> aspect that has most recently been referred to as "diverging clear".
>>>> Please refer to the attached pages from N&W rule books as reference for
>>>> what follows.
>>>>
>>>> In 1910 it was called "slower speed route clear" when used in
>>>> conjunction with one high speed route and diverging routes.  Seems clear
>>>> this was speed signaling.
>>>>
>>>> In 1915 it was "proceed under control, being prepared to stop".
>>>>
>>>> In 1930 it was just "proceed".  Does anyone have a copy of the rules
>>>> between 1915 and 1930?  I'd like to know what that one has to say.
>>>>
>>>> In 1945 it was " proceed through diverging route at prescribed speed".
>>>> This looks like route signaling.  Again if someone has intervening
>>>> information, I'd appreciate knowing about it.
>>>>
>>>> In 1951 it was " proceed through turnout route at prescribed speed"
>>>> which would seem to indicate route signaling, but the aspect name is
>>>> "medium clear" which point toward speed signaling.
>>>>
>>>> In 1961 it was the same but showed the option of a colorized aspect.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I know this was maintained until the end of the N&W.  The
>>>> term through diverging or turnout route seems to reinforce my questioning
>>>> its use where one line "joins" another.  When I visited Tom Dressler many
>>>> years ago, he informed me that going "through" a turnout was to take the
>>>> diverging path while going "over" a turnout meant staying on the
>>>> non-diverging route.  Both of these would indicate a facing points movement
>>>> and wouldn't seem to be readily applicable to trailing points movements.
>>>>
>>>> The NORAC definition of this aspect is something like proceed at medium
>>>> speed until you train clears turnouts or interlockings and then proceed at
>>>> prescribed speed.  This would seem appropriate for such a situation as we
>>>> find at Vera, but I have not seen this kink of definition in any reference
>>>> for N&W signaling.
>>>>
>>>> Hope there may be more to the story and would welcome input from anyone
>>>> who has experience/knowledge of how N&W signaling worked and the philosophy
>>>> used by the system designers.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jim Cochran
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 7:47 PM NW Mailing List <
>>>> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>> Generally. . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Route signaling is speed signaling by implication.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, diverging aspects can indicate a lower speed through the diverging
>>>>> route of a turnout, compared to the adjacent track speed, and regardless of
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, diverging aspects will be used when facing points, and *may* be
>>>>> used when trailing points.
>>>>>
>>>>> . . . mostly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to see you and All at the Convention.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grant Carpenter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/8/2025 10:31 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Attached is a photo of Vera Jct. showing the signal facing Peavine
>>>>> traffic.  Why would the "main stem" from Columbus have been considered a
>>>>> "diverging" route in this case?  Perhaps it is in some way analogous to
>>>>> middle sidings being signaled for diverging aspects where they rejoin the
>>>>> main.  I tend to think of diverging aspects being displayed to facing
>>>>> points movements where they are signaled to take a route that "diverges"
>>>>> from the one they are currently on.  Of course there are no "joining"
>>>>> aspects, so did the term "diverging" cover the act of taking a route that
>>>>> your current route is joining?   Any thoughts will be appreciated.
>>>>> Jim Cochran
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
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