Vera Jct and "Medium"

Tue Jun 24 18:39:11 EDT 2025

I'd love to know what is causing that there, a trailing point spring
switch, not having medium approach medium, .... Idk

You can give clear in the nominal case like this. I only had 3 photos on
hand.

David Baker

On Tue, Jun 24, 2025, 3:17 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
wrote:

> Jim,
>
> With apologies, I'll attempt a reply to your original post with some
> specifics.
>
> Diverging indications notify an engine crew of a speed restriction due to
> one or more turnouts ahead. By 1951, anyway, N&W Operating Rule 105 (b)
> simply stated that unless otherwise provided, speed is restricted to 25MPH
> for passenger trains and 15MPH for other trains or engines when using
> turnouts or crossovers. As Jimmy stated, exceptions were noted in ETTs and
> could vary a lot, for example, between the Radford and Pocahontas Divisions.
>
> So, diverging aspects are applied to signals in both directions "through"
> the turnout's slower/secondary route. BTW, the N&W's CPL version is not
> included in the earlier Rule 283 examples below. The three diverging
> indications are shown here, starting with the distant/advance signal
> indication Approach Diverging:
>
>
>
>
> This is an eastbound at Vera Jct. on the Cincinnati line approaching the
> turnout on the eastbound main from Columbus, shown in the lower-right
> corner. I can't recall specifics as to what other signals are here
> (bi-directional? both directions? etc.) in this time frame and with which
> aspects.
>
> So, what's with the term "medium" and the N&W?
>
> I don't know. I've asked around, and this came up here on the List several
> years ago. As of 1951, it appeared in two contexts within N&W signal rules:
>
> In the signal indication description of Rule 285 – Approach, the term
> "medium speed" appeared: "Proceed preparing to stop at next signal. Train
> exceeding medium speed must at once reduce to that speed." It appeared in
> the Operating Rules Definitions as half the max authorized speed, but not
> to exceed 30MPH.
>
> In the name of the three "diverging" indication rules, "medium" replaced
> "diverging," e.g., Diverging Clear became Medium Clear. However, the term
> "prescribed speed" was used in the rule descriptions per Rule 105 (b) above
> – not medium speed.
>
> Neither usage appeared to have much, if any, direct relevance, and the
> ambiguity seemed to be acknowledged later, because by the 1981 Rule Book,
> both instances were deleted. "Medium" was changed back to "Diverging" for
> indication names, and the reference to "medium speed" was removed from the
> Approach Rule description and the term was removed from the Rules
> Definitions.
>
> Hope this helps, just my take; edits, thoughts and questions welcome.
>
> Grant Carpenter
>
> On 6/19/2025 7:55 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> All signal fans,
> I just found this definition/explanation for what a "diverging" route can
> be interpreted to be and it covers the case at Vera:
> One of these days I hope to understand to signal a railroad.
> Jim Cochran
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 8:47 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The operating book rules calls out the AAR rules in my '51 and '45 rule
>> book. That is speed signaling, although if you look at the rules as written
>> they do a bad job explaining that. The only thing that usually drove medium
>> speed was a diverging route in a turnout.
>>
>> Is there another facing point turnout ahead?
>>
>> David Baker
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2025, 6:44 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Grant,
>>> Thanks for the reply and great seeing you at the con as well.  Your
>>> answer caused me to dig more deeply into the history of N&W
>>> aspects/indications and in particular the horizontal arm over vertical arm
>>> aspect that has most recently been referred to as "diverging clear".
>>> Please refer to the attached pages from N&W rule books as reference for
>>> what follows.
>>>
>>> In 1910 it was called "slower speed route clear" when used in
>>> conjunction with one high speed route and diverging routes.  Seems clear
>>> this was speed signaling.
>>>
>>> In 1915 it was "proceed under control, being prepared to stop".
>>>
>>> In 1930 it was just "proceed".  Does anyone have a copy of the rules
>>> between 1915 and 1930?  I'd like to know what that one has to say.
>>>
>>> In 1945 it was " proceed through diverging route at prescribed speed".
>>> This looks like route signaling.  Again if someone has intervening
>>> information, I'd appreciate knowing about it.
>>>
>>> In 1951 it was " proceed through turnout route at prescribed speed"
>>> which would seem to indicate route signaling, but the aspect name is
>>> "medium clear" which point toward speed signaling.
>>>
>>> In 1961 it was the same but showed the option of a colorized aspect.
>>>
>>> As far as I know this was maintained until the end of the N&W.  The term
>>> through diverging or turnout route seems to reinforce my questioning its
>>> use where one line "joins" another.  When I visited Tom Dressler many years
>>> ago, he informed me that going "through" a turnout was to take the
>>> diverging path while going "over" a turnout meant staying on the
>>> non-diverging route.  Both of these would indicate a facing points movement
>>> and wouldn't seem to be readily applicable to trailing points movements.
>>>
>>> The NORAC definition of this aspect is something like proceed at medium
>>> speed until you train clears turnouts or interlockings and then proceed at
>>> prescribed speed.  This would seem appropriate for such a situation as we
>>> find at Vera, but I have not seen this kink of definition in any reference
>>> for N&W signaling.
>>>
>>> Hope there may be more to the story and would welcome input from anyone
>>> who has experience/knowledge of how N&W signaling worked and the philosophy
>>> used by the system designers.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jim Cochran
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 7:47 PM NW Mailing List <
>>> nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim,
>>>>
>>>> Generally. . .
>>>>
>>>> Route signaling is speed signaling by implication.
>>>>
>>>> So, diverging aspects can indicate a lower speed through the diverging
>>>> route of a turnout, compared to the adjacent track speed, and regardless of
>>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>> So, diverging aspects will be used when facing points, and may be used
>>>> when trailing points.
>>>>
>>>> . . . mostly.
>>>>
>>>> Good to see you and All at the Convention.
>>>>
>>>> Grant Carpenter
>>>>
>>>> On 6/8/2025 10:31 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Attached is a photo of Vera Jct. showing the signal facing Peavine
>>>> traffic.  Why would the "main stem" from Columbus have been considered a
>>>> "diverging" route in this case?  Perhaps it is in some way analogous to
>>>> middle sidings being signaled for diverging aspects where they rejoin the
>>>> main.  I tend to think of diverging aspects being displayed to facing
>>>> points movements where they are signaled to take a route that "diverges"
>>>> from the one they are currently on.  Of course there are no "joining"
>>>> aspects, so did the term "diverging" cover the act of taking a route that
>>>> your current route is joining?   Any thoughts will be appreciated.
>>>> Jim Cochran
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
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