signal brackets

NW Mailing List nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Thu Mar 28 11:41:53 EDT 2024 

John:

So kindly explain to me how this signal at Chillicothe works.

Eric

> On Mar 28, 2024, at 11:31, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> 
> Eric, I am going to respectfully disagree. As you said, Diverging Clear means "Proceed through turnout or turnouts at prescribed speed.” But after clearing the “turnout or turnouts” (or in other words, reaching the end of the interlocking or control point that signal governs), it’s the same as a Clear. A train passing a Diverging Clear would operate through the turnouts at that interlocking/control point and then could accelerate to track speed (what I meant by “full speed ahead”) and would be caught by surprise when the next signal was also a diverging signal.
> 
> The proper signaling for two diverging signals in a row is Diverging Approach Diverging (rule 283-B in my 1981 rule book) followed by Diverging Clear or Diverging Approach as appropriate. The indication for Diverging Approach Diverging is “proceed through turnout or turnouts at prescribed speed preparing to take diverging route beyond next signal at prescribed speed.” Should the first signal not be capable of displaying Diverging Approach Diverging, then it is downgraded to Diverging Approach (better to approach the next signal prepared to stop than at track speed). Diverging Approach Diverging, whether on a position light signal or a color signal, required a flashing element on the second head and in 1981 (when I worked on the Scioto Division), there weren’t a lot yet - flashing signals were new to the N&W at that time.
> 
> The aspect for Diverging Approach Diverging was the same as Diverging Approach (rule 286) except for the flashing second head. This meant a fairly simple modification of adding the flasher when signals were upgraded to be able to display Diverging Approach Diverging (as they previously would have displayed Diverging Approach in that situation) but more importantly, failure of the flasher failed safe - either to the more restrictive Diverging Approach if the flasher failed stuck on or to an improper signal which would be treated as Stop and Stay if the flasher failed stuck off.
> 
> --
> Larry Stone
> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 27, 2024, at 5:40 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Larry:
>> 
>> The N&W used route signaling here versus speed signals. So a Diverging Clear,  NS Rule 283 states:   
>> 
>> “Proceed through turnout or turnouts at prescribed speed”…
>> 
>> Note “turnout/turnouts” and “prescribed speed”…the speed was dictated in the timetable…
>> 
>> There is not a “full speed ahead” connotation in that rule what so ever, the indication also allowed for multiple turnouts.
>> 
>> Eric
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Mar 27, 2024, at 20:32, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Eric, are you sure you’d get a Diverging Clear off #2? I never saw N&W use a diverging signal for a converging move. Also, diverge to a diverge should be Diverging Approach since there is no Diverging Approach Diverging (when you can’t display what it really should be, display something more restrictive - plus, Diverging Clear says “full speed ahead” after you clear the interlocking which is not what you want).
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Larry Stone
>>> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 27, 2024, at 1:35 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Total senior moment here with that Interlocking at Chillicothe....oy....I was getting confused with when the B&O was still in place at the diamond. All that was removed in the mid 1980's.
>>>> 
>>>> If you are on #1 track going west, you'd get "approach diverging" for a diverging clear at Scioto, and a return to the right hand or westbound track. If you were on #2 track, you'd get "diverging clear" off of #2 and onto the single track and you got another "diverging clear" at Scioto back on the westbound track. West of Scioto was ABS non directional signals.
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry for the confusion there...needed to revisit my dusty brain archives...
>>>> 
>>>> Eric /Columbus District
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 2:54 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>> I’m not so sure about this. N&W practice was, unlike many other railroads, not to use diverging signals for converging routes. An engineer was required to know the physical characteristics of the route so did not need a signal to tell him that the only possible route was a converging with a speed restriction. Using a diverging signal for a converging route takes away information if there is also diverging route that should be protected (I experienced that on my Metra commute one morning where we took a diverging clear at a long interlocking and the engineer assumed that it was due to the 15mph switch 1/2 mile ahead at the far end of the interlocking when instead it was due to the 10mph crossover just beyond the signal - oops. Yes, he had to dump it and we went through the crossover well above 10mph but without incident).
>>>> 
>>>> From my days working on the Scioto Division 40+ years ago, my timetable from then shows a short section of single track through Chillicothe. And if I’ve figured out where this picture is, it it looking west at the east end of the single track section. But the lack of Clear is not for the end of the two tracks but rather for the resumption of double track 1.5 miles ahead.
>>>> 
>>>> Also to note that at least in 1981, the railroad there had TC (CTC) in effect east of Chillicothe on the two tracks and through the single track section but not on the double track west of there where it was current of traffic with a designated eastward and westward track. So the signals in the photo would have displayed Approach Diverging if routed to the westward track at the end of the single track but only Approach if routed to the eastward track since the next signal could only display Restricting for a move to the not signaled for westward moves eastward track.
>>>> 
>>>> Per that timetable, the railroad went from two tracks to single track at MP N-655 plus 1535 feet and then to double track at MP N-656 plus 4680 feet. Both turnouts has a 35 mph speed restriction.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Larry Stone
>>>> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 27, 2024, at 3:15 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> John:
>>>>> 
>>>>> This signal was on the Scioto Division- Columbus District, the N&W main line west (compass north) of Portsmouth.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The reason for the lack of clear indication is that this is signal  protected the end of double track with an equilateral switch. The best aspect a train could get would be “approach diverging”.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Eric from the Columbus District
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 2024, at 23:20, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Eric,,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for the location. Is this on the mainline? Can you explain the lack of 'Clear' on both mast?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> John Garner
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The bracket post mast in question was at Chillicothe, Ohio.  I believe that my photo…
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The other double-mast signal (with straight brackets) is interesting in the fact that it cannot display 'Clear' on either side. Anyone know it's location?
>>>>>>> John Garner
>>>>>> <N&W CPL Signals Chillicothe OH.jpg>
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