Cincinnati Questions from an Eastern Hillbilly

[NW Mailing List]

A bit more: I found a 1965 Scioto Division ETT online at http://www.cincyrails.com/files/N+WSciotoDivision23-10-31-1965.pdf. It specifically answers Abram’s question 1 about who controlled the Belt Line. Special instruction 119 says "The track between Clare, Idlewild and Ivorydale is operated as a block for all trains and engines, controlled by Operator at Berry, under direction of Terminal Trainmaster.”

There’s also a map which shows both the N&W route including crossings of other railroads all the way to Ivorydale as well as the passenger route via PRR and B&O to CUT. Combining the map, special instructions, and my own knowledge, it appears from heading west from Clare and not withstanding special instruction 119 quoted above, ABS was in effect from Clare to Idlewild where the N&W crossed the PRR ex-CL&N (the special instruction about push buttons there implies it was an automatic interlocking) after which was the tail tracks used to reverse. ABS was also in effect from Idlewild to Bond Hill (the interlocking where the N&W snaked across the B&O with about 1/4 mile of shared track). That the ETT lists then as two separate sections of ABS implying no ABS on the tail tracks at Idlewild.

Finally, I am not certain where Ivorydale was exactly. They’re a note in that ETT about the “Big Four [NYC] crossing at Ivorydale” but I’ve found other references that put Ivorydale at the B&O Toledo Line. That note talks about a crossing with the NYC - today there is no crossing, it just feeds into the former NYC.

Unfortunately, that ETT has no station listings other than to support the schedule of scheduled trains so it ends at Clare (PRR Little Miami crossing) where the passenger trains left the N&W and then only has the passenger train scheduled times at CUT. So while Ivorydale is mentioned, nothing in the ETT tells us where it was.

-- 
Larry Stone
lstone19 at stonejongleux.com





> On Nov 2, 2023, at 2:28 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> 
> You’re welcome. I have no idea where Tweedvale is - I’ve never heard the name before nor can I find anything. Ivorydale, AFAIK and at least for the N&W, was west of Berry Yard where the N&W tied into the ex-NYC. The Ivorydale name appears to describe that whole Cincinnati area where most notably is  the Proctor & Gamble (Ivory Soap) plant which is I believe is why it’s so named (I was born in Cincinnati because my father worked for P&G at the time). As a result, the Ivorydale name was attached to other railroad points including there being an Ivorydale Yard on the B&O line heading north through Hamilton to Toledo.
> 
> Also, I believe where the Connecting Belt worked its way across the B&O in Norwood was called Bond Hill.
> 
> So I did some more digging. Back in the September 2002 issue of Trains was a railfan map guide to Cincinnati (I have it at home but am not home for the next week+). While there is not an online version of it, I did find https://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/map/index.html (it’s a zoomable page) (and also see https://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/ for his full website). There was a third line at Idlewild and it’s why N&W probably ended up with the wishbone track arrangement there. It was the Cincinnati, Lebanon, & Northern Railway which came from northeast of Cincinnati, through Blue Ash, through Idelwild, and down to the waterfront via a tunnel. It eventually ended up as part of the PRR and today exists only north of the ex-B&O in Norwood. So at Idelwild you have going clockwise, the Cincinnati Connecting Belt (eventually N&W) to the north, CL&N to the northeast, N&W to Clare to the east, and the CL&N continuing to the southwest.
> 
> Apparently, the CL&N through Idelwild to the waterfront remained in service until the 80s so I believe there was an interlocking at Idlewild as the N&W crossed and probably ran power around there to head the other direction. And thanks to the further research, it looks like I was wrong about pre-CUT N&W passenger trains jumping on the PRR ex-Little Miami east of Clare. Instead, it sounds like they stayed on the N&W through Clare to Idlewild and then on CL&N down to the waterfront.
> 
> It was only when CUT opened that N&W passenger trains got on the PRR east of Clare. Proceeding west on the PRR there and following on the map I linked above, N&W passenger trains went Redbank, Valley, Oakley, Penn, and E Norwood where they joined the B&O, then through Bond Hill (crossing the N&W freight from Clare to Berry), NA Tower (end of the ex-Big Four NYC), and down to CUT.
> 
> -- 
> Larry Stone
> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 2, 2023, at 10:50 AM, NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Larry
>> 
>> Thanks for your post that answers some questions on the Belt Line.  I still strugel trying to understand this area.
>> 
>> One thing I discovered there was an early station list on the Belt line that showed the line from Idlewild to Tweedvale.  I have never seen this listed in any subsequent publications as a location on the N&W Belt Line.  It was listed as a station on the B&O for many years.
>> 
>> Guess that point on the N&W was just changed to Ivorydale.
>> 
>> Jim Blackstock
>> 
>> On 11/2/2023 2:22 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>> Having been in Scioto Division management in the early 1980s (but in Sandusky) and having spent some time wondering about Cincinnati since I was born there, as near as I could ever figure out:
>>> 
>>> 1&2: N&W ownership extended from Clare to the wishbone at Idlewild and then to Berry Yard. I believe it was all yard limits so while officially under the N&W Cincinnati District dispatcher, more likely handled by an N&W Yardmaster. Before getting to Berry Yard, the line worked its way across the B&O at grade - I assume this was an interlocking under B&O control. At Berry Yard, it connected to the NYC (ex-Big Four). From there to CUT would be NYC to where it merged into the B&O and then B&O. But passengers trains did not go that way. See https://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/nwbelt.html.
>>> 
>>> 3: I don’t know anything about engine servicing but AFAIK, passenger trains never even made it to Clare. Just east of Clare where the N&W crossed the PRR (I believe ex-Little Miami from Columbus), they jumped on the PRR and headed west about a mile. At that point was a wye - one leg towards the waterfront and the other northwest (former Panhandle to Richmond, IN and on to Chicago - in 1976, it would become the N&W New Castle Line). Prior to CUT, N&W passenger trains turned left and headed to the PRR’s waterfront terminal. After CUT opened, they turned right on to the Panhandle and went about three miles to where there is another wye just north of the I-71/OH-562 (Norwood Lateral) interchange. They went left there after which at one point I believe there was a station which PRR and N&W shared as their suburban Cincinnati passenger stop, and then less than a mile later on to the B&O and on to CUT (yes, the same B&O line the Clare - Berry line via Idlewild crossed but without the need for reversing at Idlewild).
>>> 
>>> There was one other portion of N&W owned track in Cincinnati - seeing it in the Scioto Division TT made me very curious about it. As I understood it, prior to Cincinnati waterfront redevelopment, most freight going to Southern or C&O did so by going down that PRR line to the waterfront and to the yards by CUT. When Conrail was formed, Conrail did not want the waterfront line west of what was known as the L&N bridge (over the Ohio River) and so it ended up under N&W ownership despite no physical connection to any other N&W owned track. But, then redevelopment of the waterfront occurred and the city wanted the tracks along the waterfront gone (and they are now). So NS, realizing they still had trackage rights on B&O from the passenger days let CSX know they planned to use them so freight started going on what had been the passenger route on B&O from Norwood to near CUT (the PRR part was by then part of N&W - if not owned, by trackage rights as part of the New Castle Line deal). Of course, now the Cincy District is abandoned or out of service so no trains going that way.
>>> 
>>> One thing I learned working in Sandusky is sometimes on the operations side of things, no one really knows who owns what and things just work because everyone knows what to do. In Sandusky, between the ex-NYC crossing and the coal dock, there was a couple hundred feet of track shared by the ex-PRR (N&W) tracks to the dock and the ex-Big Four (Conrail) line to the Sandusky waterfront where one snaked across the other. We thought we owned it. Conrail’s ETT said they owned it but we could use it without additional permission. No one cared as it was yard limits and Conrail almost never (if ever) went there (although an old interlocking diagram I found online says it used to be interlocked as part of the same interlocking as the crossing of the ex-NYC mainline - probably when there was tower there before CTC).
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately, a lot of this is what I’ve heard or read somewhere as getting definitive information as to how things worked can be very difficult.
>>> 
>>> —
>>> Larry Stone
>>> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 1, 2023, at 3:32 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> General Custer needs an Indian Scout to help him around the Cincinnati Bad Lands. Can anyone answer a few questions about that turf ... ?
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Who owned the "Connecting Belt Line RR" between Hopkins Ave at Norwood, and Cincinnati Union Terminal ? If it was Main Track, which Train Dispatcher controlled it ?
>>>> 
>>>> 2. What was the furthest point west on the Cincinnati District over which the N&W Train Dispatcher had authority ?
>>>> 
>>>> 3. How did an N&W passenger engine get from Clare to Cincinnati Union Terminal (which two points appear to be nearly ten miles apart) ? Did the engine back all the way from Clare to CUT ? Or were N&W passenger engines just serviced, turned and laid over right at CUT, without returning to Clare for service ?  (Which would have meant that N&W passenger crews reported to and were relieved at CUT ? )
>>>> 
>>>>  -- abram burnett
>>>> 9x19 Parabellum Turnips
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