Cincinnati Questions from an Eastern Hillbilly

[NW Mailing List]

Larry

Thanks for your post that answers some questions on the Belt Line.  I 
still strugel trying to understand this area.

One thing I discovered there was an early station list on the Belt line 
that showed the line from Idlewild to Tweedvale.  I have never seen this 
listed in any subsequent publications as a location on the N&W Belt 
Line.  It was listed as a station on the B&O for many years.

Guess that point on the N&W was just changed to Ivorydale.

Jim Blackstock

On 11/2/2023 2:22 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
> Having been in Scioto Division management in the early 1980s (but in Sandusky) and having spent some time wondering about Cincinnati since I was born there, as near as I could ever figure out:
>
> 1&2: N&W ownership extended from Clare to the wishbone at Idlewild and then to Berry Yard. I believe it was all yard limits so while officially under the N&W Cincinnati District dispatcher, more likely handled by an N&W Yardmaster. Before getting to Berry Yard, the line worked its way across the B&O at grade - I assume this was an interlocking under B&O control. At Berry Yard, it connected to the NYC (ex-Big Four). From there to CUT would be NYC to where it merged into the B&O and then B&O. But passengers trains did not go that way. See https://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/nwbelt.html.
>
> 3: I don’t know anything about engine servicing but AFAIK, passenger trains never even made it to Clare. Just east of Clare where the N&W crossed the PRR (I believe ex-Little Miami from Columbus), they jumped on the PRR and headed west about a mile. At that point was a wye - one leg towards the waterfront and the other northwest (former Panhandle to Richmond, IN and on to Chicago - in 1976, it would become the N&W New Castle Line). Prior to CUT, N&W passenger trains turned left and headed to the PRR’s waterfront terminal. After CUT opened, they turned right on to the Panhandle and went about three miles to where there is another wye just north of the I-71/OH-562 (Norwood Lateral) interchange. They went left there after which at one point I believe there was a station which PRR and N&W shared as their suburban Cincinnati passenger stop, and then less than a mile later on to the B&O and on to CUT (yes, the same B&O line the Clare - Berry line via Idlewild crossed but without the need for reversing at Idlewild).
>
> There was one other portion of N&W owned track in Cincinnati - seeing it in the Scioto Division TT made me very curious about it. As I understood it, prior to Cincinnati waterfront redevelopment, most freight going to Southern or C&O did so by going down that PRR line to the waterfront and to the yards by CUT. When Conrail was formed, Conrail did not want the waterfront line west of what was known as the L&N bridge (over the Ohio River) and so it ended up under N&W ownership despite no physical connection to any other N&W owned track. But, then redevelopment of the waterfront occurred and the city wanted the tracks along the waterfront gone (and they are now). So NS, realizing they still had trackage rights on B&O from the passenger days let CSX know they planned to use them so freight started going on what had been the passenger route on B&O from Norwood to near CUT (the PRR part was by then part of N&W - if not owned, by trackage rights as part of the New Castle Line deal). Of course, now the Cincy District is abandoned or out of service so no trains going that way.
>
> One thing I learned working in Sandusky is sometimes on the operations side of things, no one really knows who owns what and things just work because everyone knows what to do. In Sandusky, between the ex-NYC crossing and the coal dock, there was a couple hundred feet of track shared by the ex-PRR (N&W) tracks to the dock and the ex-Big Four (Conrail) line to the Sandusky waterfront where one snaked across the other. We thought we owned it. Conrail’s ETT said they owned it but we could use it without additional permission. No one cared as it was yard limits and Conrail almost never (if ever) went there (although an old interlocking diagram I found online says it used to be interlocked as part of the same interlocking as the crossing of the ex-NYC mainline - probably when there was tower there before CTC).
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of this is what I’ve heard or read somewhere as getting definitive information as to how things worked can be very difficult.
>
> —
> Larry Stone
> lstone19 at stonejongleux.com
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Nov 1, 2023, at 3:32 PM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>
>> General Custer needs an Indian Scout to help him around the Cincinnati Bad Lands. Can anyone answer a few questions about that turf ... ?
>>
>> 1. Who owned the "Connecting Belt Line RR" between Hopkins Ave at Norwood, and Cincinnati Union Terminal ? If it was Main Track, which Train Dispatcher controlled it ?
>>
>> 2. What was the furthest point west on the Cincinnati District over which the N&W Train Dispatcher had authority ?
>>
>> 3. How did an N&W passenger engine get from Clare to Cincinnati Union Terminal (which two points appear to be nearly ten miles apart) ? Did the engine back all the way from Clare to CUT ? Or were N&W passenger engines just serviced, turned and laid over right at CUT, without returning to Clare for service ?  (Which would have meant that N&W passenger crews reported to and were relieved at CUT ? )
>>
>>    -- abram burnett
>> 9x19 Parabellum Turnips
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