Logo stencils on diesel engines

NW Mailing List nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
Wed Apr 26 12:07:37 EDT 2023 

Hey Phil:

What I addressed was locomotives and passenger cars, freight cars, in the day, were very different and much less care was taken with them than the passenger equipment and locomotives, and even, to some extent cabooses.

I’d be interested in the top gun photos for the Arrow, no big rush, email off the list for details.

What Larry stated about CSX is they use a large vinyl cutter, and I am certain NS does the same. This is the same type cutter you will find in sign shops, and to a much lesser degree in individuals hands. Yes, I have provided files for CSX to cut.

Best
Ken Miller

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 6:54 PM, NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
> 
> Ken and Larry,
> Thank you for all the info on this. It's really interesting. The only ones I've ever seen were the Top Gon cars (I have a couple photos of them in the paint booth from our NWHS tour) and a video in the early 70's, I think, of a Canadian National boxcar being built and stenciled with their noodle logo. 
> It's apparent that stenciling a loco was not an easy job and as Ken pointed out, you need really long arms or work arounds. Thanks for sharing the stories.
> I agree that would make an interesting story for the Arrow. I endorse it, although I can't contribute much to the content. I'm willing to share my photo or two from the TopGon shop tour. In the meantime, I think I'll stick with HO-scale lettering. It's much easier to work with. 
> Phil Miller
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org> On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 7:59 PM
> To: 'NW Mailing List' <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: RE: Logo stencils on diesel engines
> 
> Add to what Kens already said.  I don t know what NS uses at Altoona but CSX paint shop in Huntington Wv I am told  (supposed to get a tour or it soon) has their own computer cutting software and hardware and can just cut them on demand . Like Ken I have done fair amount of paint and lettering and had dealt with Deep-Knock company for years when painting  rail cars. , I missed a great opportunity.  I talked to the owner of Deep-Knock just after they closed shop . I ask about all the full size letter drawings  they had because every railroad airline in the country use them and he told me if he had known I could have had them all  just for the taking . Flat file after flat went to the dumpster . missed it by just a few weeks
> 
> Larry Evans
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NW-Mailing-List [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On Behalf Of NW Mailing List
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2023 6:38 PM
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Logo stencils on diesel engines
> 
> Phil
> 
> I can address this based on my experience of lettering a bunch of stuff. I m just addressing locomotives at the moment, as that is what your question is. If there is interest, I can take this and make a article in the Arrow with photos and a lot more detail of how things are done.
> 
> The stencils used in most recent years were stencils cut by the Deep-Knock Company of Warren, Michigan. I do not know what NS uses presently, as Deep-Knock went out of business some time back.
> 
> However, the Deep-Knock stencils were cut with dies, into the material, which was adhesive backed, on a crepe paper type of backing. Things like the numbers were cut as individual pieces, with a bit around them for mask. So they were placed on the location, pull off the crepe paper backing, adhere them to the surface, then, depending on how the painting was done, either the center of the number, or the outside of the number was peeled off. If it was the center of the number, the lettering was then masked off, and painted in the opening or the letter shape. If it was reverse masked, or the letter color was painted on the surface (say imitation gold) then you peeled the mask off leaving the letter shape, which was then sprayed over with the finished body color (say black).
> 
> Now that is simple for the stuff like numbers. Large stencils, like the heralds were done the same way. Now, lettering say the side of a GP-9, you likely had a stencil for the entire word  norfolk  one for  and  and one for  western  Now, putting those up can vary according to unit type, generally speaking, the stenciling diagrams specify exactly where the letters were to be placed from the end of the unit and off the running board, or side of the unit. Applying the large stencils like this is an art, and the word  norfolk  in the 10 inch letters measures out just over 67.5 inches wide, that is a lot to try and put up alone, especially with door seams, etc. If you try and do it alone, you simply cannot stretch your arms wide enough to place that on smoothly. So you end up cutting the stencils to more manageable sizes. Normally, I work with 2-3 letters at a time, and it works pretty well. You still have to work around the door seams, and any obstructions, sometimes you move a letter a
>  tiny bit in one direction or the other.
> 
> I don t believe I ve ever seen the actual Deep-Knock stencils for the diesels. The use is one time and gone. I ve seen/had some of the half-moon heralds, they had a whole box left in the old paint shop room at East End back in the mid 1980s. All the adhesive (think like old masking tape) had dried out and they were simply useless. I might still have one somewhere.
> 
> I have packages of passenger car lettering, all cut as individual letters, and the Powhatan Arrow logo as one piece. Those have never been opened, so I doubt they are even remotely usable, more an artifact than anything.
> 
> At the archives, thanks to Charlie Schlotthober, we have several boxes of the wide variety of stencils, numbers and such, all as individual pieces.
> 
> So, the really short answer to your question is, no, there were not varieties of stencils cut for different locomotives, the painter worked with what was there.
> 
> Like I said, I can do a much more detailed article of how this works if there is interest.
> 
> Best
> Ken Miller
> 
>> On Apr 24, 2023, at 9:13 AM, NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Based on the info below, I have a question about painting the railroad logo on the sides of locomotives. 
>> 
>> With NW or NS logos, did a stencil have to be developed for each model of locomotive to fit around doors, hinges, vents, etc. so that there wasn't overspray when painting the logo on the hood? 
>> I remember seeing the stencil used on the Top Gon cars that fit tight around the vertical frames. I presume the same applies to locomotives as well. I can imagine a lot of stencils had to be prepared for each locomotive model being painted. 
>> 
>> Phil Miller
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org> On Behalf Of 
>> NW Mailing List
>> Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2023 6:01 AM
>> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Subject: Re: IT SD39
>> 
>> Gary
>> 
>> Your question raised my curiosity enough to dig into our archives, as this was one of my questions, being a paint and lettering guy, but never took the time to find out.
>> 
>> Those units, 2961-2966 former IT numbers 2301-2306 all received a variety of repaints. 
>> 
>> The most unusual was the green and yellow IT paint with IT lettering painted out, and a large white NW on the hood:
>> 
>> https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=111223
>> 
>> A search of our archives gives you a comparison
>> 
>> https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/listdocs/select.php?index=rs&id=136
>> 
>> Since it is almost impossible to find a photo of every single unit, at 
>> ever stage of its N&W life, here is what I determined based on what we 
>> have, which may or may not be a complete list
>> 
>> 2961  No photo in green with large white NW scheme
>> 2961  Green with Norfolk and Western sub-lettering on cab side and 
>> small NW on hood
>> 2961  Repainted at Norfolk, March 1983, Black with spelled out Norfolk 
>> and Western, final scheme
>> 2962  Green with white NW
>> 2962  Repainted black with spelled out Norfolk and Western, final 
>> scheme probably in May of 1983
>> 2963  No photo in green with white NW scheme, but shown with IT 
>> lettering painted out and Norfolk and Western sub lettered on the cab 
>> side
>> https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=188570
>> 
>> 2963  Black with spelled out Norfolk and Western, final scheme, 
>> probably painted Roanoke Shops in May 1983
>> 2964  Green with white NW scheme
>> 2964  Repainted in September October 1982, Black with spelled out 
>> Norfolk and Western, final scheme
>> 2965  Green with white NW scheme
>> 2965  Black with spelled out Norfolk and Western, at least one version 
>> with old style 10 inch
>> https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=173669
>> 
>> 2965  Repinted at Norfolk, March 1983, Black with spelled out Norfolk 
>> and Wester, final scheme
>> 2966  Green with white NW scheme
>> 2966  Probably repainted at Norfolk, April-May 1983, Black with 
>> spelled out Norfolk and Western, final scheme
>> 
>> This all compiled using Bob Bowers wonderful database on our website, plus the variety of his slide collection.
>> 
>> Best
>> Ken Miller
>> 
>>> On Apr 21, 2023, at 8:43 PM, NW Mailing List via NW-Mailing-List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Of the 6 SD-39 that came over from Illinois Terminal, dis any make it into the block  NW  scheme?
>>> 
>>> Gary P. Price
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