Roanoke Belt Line Right-of-Way Question

[NW Mailing List]

Gordon:

You said it was a 1945 reprint of the 1891 topo map. I *think* - and folks
please chime in - it’s common for the topo maps to be updated between
printings.

Dave Phelps

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:58 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
wrote:

> Here are some bits and pieces of the Rorer narrow gauge railroad/Roanoke &
> Southern/Roanoke Belt Line chronology puzzle that I have run across.  They
> may raise more questions than they explain.
>
> The Rorer narrow gauge was under contract for completion May 1883 (The
> Virginias, A Mining, Industral & Scientific Journal .... January 1883, p. 6)
>
> A USGS 1891 topo map, Reprinted 1945, titled "Bedford Va" shows a railroad
> from the "Rorer Mines" (obviously the narrow gauge) crossing another
> railroad marked, "Winston-Salem Div., Norfolk and Western R. R.," on
> Colonial Heights where generally agreed upon by current researchers and
> then again crossing over another railroad (obviously the Roanoke Belt line)
> just west of the mouth of Murray Run after which the narrow gauge runs
> alongside the Belt Line and the Roanoke River until diverging into
> present-day Wasena Park (original Rorer washer location) and then on to the
> ore transfer station on the south side of the N&W yard.  This is reinforced
> by a copy of a portion of an undated, unidentified different map which also
> shows the same relationship of the narrow gauge, the Winston-Salem line and
> the Belt Line.
>
> But, the R & S did not begin service into Roanoke until March 1892
> (Lambie, p. 144), even though it is shown on the 1891 topo map and
> identified as N & W RR.  Also, until 1904, as shown in N&W Annual Reports,
> the Roanoke Belt line extended only 1.59 miles eastward from the vicinity
> of the present-day Roadway Material Yard, placing its east end far short of
> present-day Wasena Park.  In 1904 in order to reduce routing options to the
> Tidewater RR through Roanoke, the N&W extended the Belt Line another 2.34
> miles to a connection with the Winston-Salem District of the N&W (Lambie,
> p. 270 and N&W Annual Report 1904).
>
> So, the 1891 topo map and the unidentified map both show the narrow gauge
> in the vicinity of the the Belt Line even though the latter was not built
> until 1904.  Is it not true that we can believe everything on a map just as
> we can believe everything on the internet?
>
> Maybe the best answer about whether the narrow gauge was still in the
> vicinity of the 1904 Belt Line is provided by available Shenandoah Division
> Employee Timetables in the NWHS Archives.  Examination of ETTs No. 4,
> 12/5/1897 thru No. 1, 12/3/1905 revealed no grade crossing of the narrow
> gauge with the Winston-Salem line during that time span.  So, the narrow
> gauge could not have been operating in the vicinity of the 1904 Belt Line
> as shown on the maps.
>
> Gordon Hamilton
>
>
>
> On 10/28/2019 11:13 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> Stephen,
>
>
>
> Great information here. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Just to add a little to the mix . . . you said  “There is no explanation
> of what the N&W would provide later, in terms of a branch line to get the
> ore to market from the Tanglewood Mall area. BUT, I'm assuming this period
> of 1889-91 is when we're seeing a plan come together to move the washers
> out of Wasena, freeing up the Belt Line section, and creating a new ore
> washer and transfer station over at the Red Palace Restaurant at Tanglewood
> Mall.”
>
>
>
> There would have probably been no need for an R&S/N&W “branch line to get
> the ore to market from the Tanglewood Mall area” because the Roanoke &
> Southern Ry. reached Roanoke in early 1892. I assume the Rorer NG would
> have then considered moving their washing operation from Wasena to
> Tanglewood and abandoning much of their R/W after that time including the
> portion btwn Murray Run and Wasena needed for construction of the the Loop
> Line. Due to the limited width of that portion of right-of way I rather
> doubt that both roads were ever located there at the same time. It would be
> interesting to know when construction of the Belt (or Loop) Line was
> begun/completed on the south side of the Roanoke River.
>
>
>
> John Garner
>
>
>
> *From:* NW Mailing List [mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 26, 2019 3:08 PM
> *To:* NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Roanoke Belt Line Right-of-Way Question
>
>
>
> Capt. Abram, et al -
>
>
>
> You've covered a lot of ground here, literally and figuratively. I like
> your assessments of where the Rorer line made its way from point A to point
> B. Here are a couple of thoughts, since I drive that stretch of Colonial
> Avenue every day:
>
>
>
> - Your straight line proposal is subject to terrain, as you were
> 'inclined' to say. I can confirm there are definitely a few elevation
> issues that keep the Rorer line moving along the flat of Colonial Avenue,
> just past Persinger Road. However, the residential section beyond that
> consists of a single row of houses (from Persinger to Towers Mall) - behind
> which you can still see a natural swale that was probably the NG roadbed
> leading down towards Brandon Avenue. That trajectory runs past the back of
> a more recent construction of storage units (called Kustom Film & Tint on
> Google maps, approximately across from Broadway). This trajectory picks up
> at the short street called "Brandon Lane" and dumps out directly across
> from Wheeler Laundry on Brandon Avenue. Murray Run is behind that.
>
>
>
> - The Alms House shown on the Winston Salem Division section map is the
> VERY same two-story brick building that you described as the Thomas Center
> for Advanced Studies. By the way, that building was reported to be very
> haunted up until the mid 1980s, when some expert went ahead and "freed" the
> ghosts who were holed up in that building. True Urban Myth in these parts...
>
>
>
> - At the GOB-East archives session this morning, Mssers Harper, Shaw, and
> myself were busy unearthing new information about the Belt Line, Roanoke
> and Southern, and the Rorer NG line. Several items seem to point out that
> the N&W was trying to build a belt line, at first called the "Loop Line,"
> as early as the late 1880s, and its configuration changed from an interior
> line to the north of the River, to an exterior line that was positioned in
> its final location to the south side of the river.
>
>
>
> - Joe, who has much more brain plasticity due to his youth, was quick to
> retrieve about seven different drawings which showed references to both the
> Belt Line and the Rorer NG, including the washers in Wasena Park. He also
> located a Nov., 1890 drawing (attached here) which shows how the N&W
> obtained property from the Lowman and Howbert families along the Roanoke
> River near Murray's run. I suspect it was only a planning map, not a final
> version of what really happened. It showed how the NG and standard gauge
> tracks would have to cross each other twice. I'm starting to believe this
> "diamond" which would be necessary for the NG to cross the N&W never
> actually came to pass.
>
>
>
> - Another document, found mysteriously by master sleuth Harper (aka "Bruce
> out of Blacksburg") showed a formal transcription of the deed conveyed in
> May, 1890 by the Consolidated Mining Company (*successor to Rorer Iron) to
> the N&W. It discusses a lot of NG track properties on the County end. There
> is no explanation of what the N&W would provide later, in terms of a branch
> line to get the ore to market from the Tanglewood Mall area. BUT, I'm
> assuming this period of 1889-91 is when we're seeing a plan come together
> to move the washers out of Wasena, freeing up the Belt Line section, and
> creating a new ore washer and transfer station over at the Red Palace
> Restaurant at Tanglewood Mall.
>
>
>
> - What stands out to me is a comment on the Section Map I shared
> yesterday. Just below the Alms House it describes a commitment to add, per
> Roanoke City Council, a siding that will hold no less than four cars and to
> be opened as a flag station. Joe and I debated today whether that was to
> serve as the actual point of connection for the Consolidated Mining Co's
> track leading back over to the Chinese Restaurant. Methinks that's a topic
> for another day.
>
>
>
> Stephen Warren, Roanoke
>
>
>
> [image: DSC_4693.jpg]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 1:15 PM NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> wrote:
>
> Cardinal Warren's drawing, posted yesterday and showing the Rorer R/W
> crossing the Roanoke & Southern about 100 feet south of MP 8, hath ye done
> sent me to the satellite imagery in the Google Earth program.
>
>
>
> The goals were:  (1)  Find the spot where Rorer R/W crossed R&S R/W, and
> (2) to project a line from that point to Murray Run.
>
>
>
> A PDF is attached, showing four satellite images with some notes added.
>
>
>
> I had the standard, usual and customary problems:  (1) MP 8 could not be
> seen in the satellite imagery.  So, (2) I had to locate MP 8 by measuring
> from the track chart mileages for O.H. bridges, which are generally
> expressed to 2 decimal places;  but when O.H. bridges are over 100 feet
> wide, who knows whether the track chart dude measured from the exact center
> lines of the bridges?  So right off the bat, you have a potential error of
> 50 feet.
>
>
>
> The Virginia Division track Chart indicates that MP 8 is 0.67 miles south
> of the Wonju St OH Bridge, and 0.29 miles south of the Rt581/Rt220 OH
> Bridge.  I began my question for MP 8 from these two points.
>
>
>
> Fortunately, the mile between MP 7 and MP 8 is indicated as a 5,280 foot
> mile (many are not so, you know.)  So, to find MP 8, I measured 3538 feet
> southward from the center line of Wonju St OH Bridge, and 1531 feet
> southward from the centerline of the Rt 220 OH Bridge.
>
>
>
> Those two measurements for finding MP 8 yielded results differing by 210
> feet.  To each of these two measurements I added the 100 feet, and marked
> the two points with yellow push pins reading *Wonju + 100 ft* and *Rt581 +
> 100 ft.*  Those two push pins should bracket the area where Mr. Rorer
> crossed the Roanoke & Southern.  Sheet 1 of the PDF shows these two push
> pins and identifications identifications.
>
>
>
> An on-ground reference is the angled corner of the parking lot located
> about 865 feet north of the Thomas Center Building of Virginia Western
> College.
>
>
>
> Sheets 2, 3 and 4 of the PDF show a heavy blue line projected onto the
> satellite imagery, from the assumed Rorer/R&S crossing near MP 8 down to
> Murray Run.  The distance referenced by this line is 0.97 miles long.  The
> elevation at Murray Run is approximately 930 feet; at R&S MP 8, the
> elevation is approximately 1014 feet; the disparity between the two
> elevations is approximately 84 feet.  On Sheet 4, the view looks southward
> from Murray Run, up the small declivity now occupied by Brandon Lane,
> towards Colonial Avenue and R&S MP 8.
>
>
>
> If Mr. Rorer's engineers had the luxury of locating their railroad on a
> perfectly straight alignment from MP 8 down to Murray Run, their alignment
> would have crossed Colonial Avenue at an acute angle, approximately 170
> feet west that Avenue's present intersection with Persinger Road.
> Unfortunately, that area is one I never explored as a kid, because I had no
> inkling the narrow gauge had run that way.
>
>
>
> In these images, the vertical disparity exaggeration is ramped up to its
> maximum, for the purposes of making the hills and valleys more apparent.
>
>
>
> No carping, please, about where the end of the blue line ended at Murray
> Run.  Google Earth is not a precision draughting program, and I did the
> best I could with the tools available.
>
>
>
> Decades upon decades ago, Bob McNeill, a 1926 Punkin Vine Conductor who
> had earlier been a Fireman on the Danville & Western, showed me the spot
> where the Rorer railroad had crossed Rt. 220, in the vicinity of present
> Tanglehead Mall.  I looked at the Google Street Views and cannot identify
> the location, because everything has changed and the area no longer looks
> even remotely like I remember it.  So we shall send out Detective Bundy and
> Gum Shoe Blackstock, led by the capable Police Chief Warren, to bring back
> the goods...  Y'all git busy, Boys !
>
>
>
> -- abram burnett,
>
> Ancient Order of the Mystic Turnip
>
>
> ===========================================
>                   Sent to You from my Telegraph Key
> Successor to the MAGNETIC TELEGRAPH LINE of 1844
> ===========================================
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "Abram Burnett (КѢРѢЛЛОСЛАВЪ БЕРИНОВЪ)" <pravoslavna at comcast.net>
> To: N&W Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Date: October 25, 2019 at 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Roanoke Belt Line Right-of-Way Question
>
> Warren-Garner-Rorer & Associates, LLC :
>
>
>
> Thank you, Stefanos, for posting that drawing of the Rorer & Pacific N.G.
> crossing the Roanoke & Southern.
>
>
>
> I grew up not far from that area.  From the time my father told me of
> having looked for the ore pits on Yellow Mountain in his own youth in the
> 1920s and 19e0s, the Rorer fascinated me.  I looked for it never found a
> trace.
>
>
>
> The spot where the Tanglefoot [sic] Mall now sprawls was, in my childhood,
> an absolutely beautiful field, level as a table top and covered with scruff
> grasses about a foot tall.  There was one pine tree about six feet tall
> growing near the middle.  I never saw the field under cultivation, but for
> some reason it did not revert to heavy vegetation and tree and brush
> cover.  In the northeast corner of the field, approximately in the spot now
> occupied by the Chinese restaurant, was a small, unpainted, dilapidated
> cabin.  Of course, the level where the Tanglehead Mall now sits has been
> raised  by twenty or more feet from its original elevation.  When viewed
> from the track, this field was the single most idyllically peaceful scenic
> memory of my childhood.
>
>
>
> Later I worked two years in train service on the Punkin' Vine, and every
> time I passed that area, looking for the Rorer was on my mind.  An old-head
> Conductor, Casey O. Young, a 1926 hire, showed me the spot where the Rorer
> had been located, based on information furnished by men of the generation
> before him.  But I could never see anything there, and I never dreamt that
> the Rorer had crossed the R&S alignment, from east to west.
>
>
>
> So your drawing, fixing the crossing of rights-of-way about a hundred feet
> south of MP 8, is a delight to me, a delight of the first order.  Thank You
> !
>
>
>
> Also quite heuristic was the information you posted yesterday that the
> Rorer's route to Murray Run was WEST of the Tower's Shopping Center.  I
> have been up and down Brandon Road thousands of times (60+ years ago,) many
> of those times on foot,  and the possibility that I was crossing the Rorer
> R-of-W never entered my mind.  I watched the Towers mall being built.  The
> first fast-food *burger joint* I ever saw, and possibly the first one in
> Roanoke,  was located on Brandon Road, at the foot of the hill below the
> Towers, on the spot now occupied by the Kroger gas station; if memory
> serves, the burgers cost twenty cents.  One day I walked over from my
> newspaper route, purchased a burger, and quickly developed a dislike for
> greasy fast food.
>
>
>
> The small road now identified as *Brandon Lane* was then a dirt road and
> may have yielded some traces  of the Rorer Fast Line, had I looked.
>
>
>
> Back in the 1960s, I also searched for any indications of the Rorer west
> of Wasena, along Ferdinand Avenue, through the West End section of Roanoke,
> and looping back eastward to its connection with the N&W around 12th
> Street.  Findings?  Nil.
>
>
>
> My thanks to all for these posts on the Rorer.
>
>
>
> Raymond Barnes, History of Roanoke, 1968, indicates that Ferdinand Rorer,
> after his financial ruination, left Roanoke and "was never heard from
> again" (or words to that effect.)  Hopefully, in the future, something will
> be found of old Ferd's subsequent life and ventures.  (I worked alongside
> Raymond Barnes, Esq., in the microfilm room of the Roanoke Library, in the
> early 1960s, when he was doing the research for that book. Boy, was he a
> piece of work !!! )
>
>
>
> Keep up the good research on Rorer.  If anyone deigns to re-incarnate
> Rorer's Narrow Gauge Railroad, I shall assist by purchasing a few shares of
> stock.  And if you decide to operate the railroad by the Telegraph, I am
> your guy.
>
>
>
> -- abramo burnardo
>
>
>
> i # Turnips, ver. 2.0
>
>
> ===========================================
>                   Sent to You from my Telegraph Key
> Successor to the MAGNETIC TELEGRAPH LINE of 1844
> ===========================================
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Regards, Dave
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