Coal fired UP and range fires

[NW Mailing List]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BNGGFzWdZE

I have linked above a preview clip from when we did Union Pacific  
shoots in the late 80's.  We did two photo specials with 4-6-6-4 3985,  
one in 1987 and again in 1988.  On the 88 trip I rode the cab from the  
last runby at Dale Cut over the hill and through the Hermosa Tunnel  
and down to Laramie.  Steve Lee told me I was the only one who ever  
got that shot of all the hot embers into the cab.  We were  
accelerating out of a yellow signal and into the tunnel.  We set a  
bunch of fires between Cheyenne and Laramie on both trips, and fans  
were stomping them out before we headed back to the train.

As a youngster I remember Weed Spraying Trains on the Norfolk and  
Western on the Cincinnati-Portsmouth line, circa 1956 or so.  That  
control kept foliage at bay most of the time.  I do not remember any  
fires.  Fast-forward to 1972 when the first steam since 1958 ran on  
this line, in the form of Southern 2-8-2 4501.  I remember talking to  
some guy who was a volunteer fireman locally and when I mentioned the  
steam special he said "Oh yeah that thing cause us a bunch of grief  
setting fires up Batavia Hill.  So no weed control from the mid-late  
50's to 72.

The Big Boys were limited to Ogdon-Evantson-Laramie-Cheyenne, and  
Cheyenne-Denver.  Fire was not the only reason western roads went to  
oil.  Coal was not as plentiful as in the east.  Exceptions were the  
Denver and Rio Grande Western that had coal supplies in its regions.   
Same for UP in the Cheyenne-Denver region, and the area the Big Boys  
served.  Challengers and 800's were both oil and coal, but I think  
most were coal as built and converted to oil.

In 1988 it was determined they should convert the Challenger(3985) to  
burn oil.  The oil tank, and burner were "Borrowed" from the only  
other existing Challenger, #3977 from Cody Park in North Platte, NE.   
Here is a link to some photos.

http://www.google.com/search?q=union+pacific+3977&hl=en&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2xdn94rPVAhWF5CYKHUISBmMQsAQIGg

One interesting side-bar.  During the time I was shooting the videos  
of the UP, N&W steam was going strong, especially when 1218 was  
operating.  There was a friendly rivalry between the UP crews and the  
NS Steam guys.  When I got in the cab of 3985 to do the cab ride in  
1988, I asked Steve Lee..."Any special rules".  He said "Yes, no  
hanging out the gangway, or mention of NS Steam".

Greg Scholl
http://www,gregschollvideo.com


On Jul 31, 2017, at 6:54 AM, nw-mailing-list-request at nwhs.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Coal fired UP and range fires (NW Mailing List)
>   2. Re: Coal fired UP and range fires (NW Mailing List)
>   3. Gill Selectors (NW Mailing List)
>   4. DW Flickwir Passes On (NW Mailing List)
>   5. New RPM Meet (NW Mailing List)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 16:24:55 +0000 (UTC)
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Re: Coal fired UP and range fires
> Message-ID: <mailman.2911.1501497899.324.nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Let's not put all the blame of the range (or other) fires on steam  
> locos alone. Many fires are set by dragging breaks,etc.during diesel  
> operation. The local fire dept. is called on yearly on many leaf  
> fires set by diesel freights. Diesels throw sparks too . Ron H
>
>    On Sunday, July 30, 2017 8:25 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org 
> > wrote:
>
>
> Good afternoon from the UK,
>
> There is a Big Boy in the museum in Denver. It is an impressive  
> piece of
> kit. I was lucky enough to see this a few years ago. It is in good
> condition.
>
> Was the range fire problem a big issue when steam was in full  
> operation on
> the N&W and the UP?? In our rain drenched conditions in Britain this  
> is less
> of a problem other than in dry spells of which we seem to have very  
> few. It
> is raining now!
>
> Regards
>
> Phil Mortimer
> With regard to the question from the gentleman from the UK, my  
> understanding is that in the years since the end of steam, coal- 
> fired steam especially on the UP, the weeds grew closer and closer  
> to the rails without the 'natural control' which was maintained back  
> when in the glory days of steam. In addition, the spark arrestor on  
> Challenger may either have been no more or otherwise no longer  
> operating properly or even at all. In any event, there were lots of  
> range fires and the UP found it had to follow the train with a  
> tanker and hose to douse the problems wherever they appeared.
> As for oil-firing, when the engine is parked, you turn off the  
> firing valve and then the oil and your engine is parked. No banked  
> fires with a pile of coal. Been there done that, both ways for  
> steam. Always preferred oil over coal: you don't have to shovel that  
> stuff, that's for sure.
> Then again, you also had to have a bunch of sand to sand the flues  
> to clear them of the soot buildup periodically. Sure made a Lucius  
> Beebe type sight with all that black soot/smoke blowing out. Might  
> not make EPA pleased but what the heck.
> When we see a Big Boy freely roam the rails again, it will be oil- 
> fired. Just remember that UP's 8400 class were all coal-fired when  
> received from Alco and were converted over to oil as time and  
> convenience went on. Several survivors exist from that class but  
> only the last new steamer purchased by UP, the 844 remains active  
> and is the ONLY Class 1 carrier's steam locomotive to have never  
> been retired in the US. UP will surely get-it-right with the Big Boy  
> and whenever we see it again under its' own power, it will be the  
> first time since late July 1959 for a Big Boy.
> Isn't it great to see these things roam the lands they once called  
> home and not just see them in a glorified over sized petting zoo  
> going chuggity-chug-STOP at tourist museums? 611 has delighted fans  
> trackside many times since 1982 as have others and that is how this  
> animal was meant to be ............. but wouldn't it be great to see  
> it once again go at the speeds it was originally designed for.  
> Weren't there signs once on the RR "Slow down to 90"? I know they  
> existed out west at least.
> Oh to dream ................ zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>
> Bob Cohen
>
> ________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:28:58 -0400
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org
> Subject: Re: Coal fired UP and range fires
> Message-ID: <mailman.2912.1501497966.324.nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Follow up on something I forgot regarding the Denver #4005. Trust  
> me, that
> engine is NOT in good shape. When it was moved into the spot it sat  
> for
> many years, there was a curve and in order to "make it fit" where it  
> was
> desired back in the 1960s, I was told the frame was torched or  
> something
> along those lines, to get it into the last 50 or 100 feet. Then  
> again, it
> has also been sitting uncovered, outdoors for all these years,  
> subject to
> wind, rain, freezing, etc. It might look nice but trust me is not.  
> That is
> a lesson the WM Scenic has sadly learned from the #1309 which sat  
> out of
> doors, unprotected all these years and available to all sorts of  
> wind and
> rain. What was it someone more recently stated regarding that: worn  
> out and
> put away wet?
>
> Anyone who think the railroads gave away mint condition steam when
> consigned to parks, when all they wanted to do was get rid of them  
> is sadly
> mistaken. SP torched the piston rods on #4460 and UP I was told did  
> it to
> the BIG Boy in Dallas, and the list can go on.
>
> Oh, we lament why wasn't any of this or that class or railroad's  
> engine
> saved, but the larger ones were several thousand dollars in scrap  
> steel,
> never minding weighing many tons to go over local roads, and even  
> back in
> the 50s and 60s, not cheap to move.
>
> Let's be glad for what WAS saved. Out of nearly a quarter-million  
> steamers
> which graced American rails from the 1820s until today, something  
> less than
> 2,000 survive in one vegetative state or another.
>
> Bob Cohen
>
> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Bob Cohen <orlco96782 at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Good afternoon from the UK,
>>
>> There is a Big Boy in the museum in Denver. It is an impressive  
>> piece of
>> kit. I was lucky enough to see this a few years ago. It is in good
>> condition.
>>
>> Was the range fire problem a big issue when steam was in full  
>> operation on
>> the N&W and the UP?  In our rain drenched conditions in Britain  
>> this is
>> less
>> of a problem other than in dry spells of which we seem to have very  
>> few. It
>> is raining now!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Phil Mortimer
>>
>> With regard to the question from the gentleman from the UK, my
>> understanding is that in the years since the end of steam, coal- 
>> fired steam
>> especially on the UP, the weeds grew closer and closer to the rails  
>> without
>> the *'natural control'* which was maintained back when in the glory  
>> days
>> of steam. In addition, the spark arrestor on Challenger may either  
>> have
>> been no more or otherwise no longer operating properly or even at  
>> all. In
>> any event, there were lots of range fires and the UP found it had  
>> to follow
>> the train with a tanker and hose to douse the problems wherever they
>> appeared.
>>
>> As for oil-firing, when the engine is parked, you turn off the firing
>> valve and then the oil and your engine is parked. No banked fires  
>> with a
>> pile of coal. Been there done that, both ways for steam. Always  
>> preferred
>> oil over coal: you don't have to shovel that stuff, that's for sure.
>>
>> Then again, you also had to have a bunch of sand to sand the flues to
>> clear them of the soot buildup periodically. Sure made a Lucius  
>> Beebe type
>> sight with all that black soot/smoke blowing out. Might not make EPA
>> pleased but what the heck.
>>
>> When we see a Big Boy freely roam the rails again, it will be oil- 
>> fired.
>> Just remember that UP's 8400 class were all coal-fired when  
>> received from
>> Alco and were converted over to oil as time and convenience went on.
>> Several survivors exist from that class but only the last new steamer
>> purchased by UP, the 844 remains active and is the ONLY Class 1  
>> carrier's
>> steam locomotive to have never been retired in the US. UP will surely
>> get-it-right with the Big Boy and whenever we see it again under  
>> its' own
>> power, it will be the first time since late July 1959 for a Big Boy.
>>
>> Isn't it great to see these things roam the lands they once called  
>> home
>> and not just see them in a glorified over sized petting zoo going
>> chuggity-chug-STOP at tourist museums? 611 has delighted fans  
>> trackside
>> many times since 1982 as have others and that is how this animal  
>> was meant
>> to be ............. but wouldn't it be great to see it once again  
>> go at the
>> speeds it was originally designed for. Weren't there signs once on  
>> the RR
>> "Slow down to 90"? I know they existed out west at least.
>>
>> Oh to dream ................ zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>>
>>
>> Bob Cohen
>>
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 06:50:08 -0400
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: Gill Selectors
> Message-ID: <mailman.2914.1501498459.324.nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello!
>
> The attached 1911 United States Electric Company Bulletin 401 states  
> that
> the N&W and VGN used Gill Selectors.  These were units connected to a
> ringer for a dispatcher to call a particular office to speak on the
> dispatcher's telephone circuit.  Selectors may have been used on the  
> N&W
> Message Line, with an telephone operator at Roanoke to ring an  
> office.  I
> don't think Gill Selectors were compatible with Western Electric  
> Selectors,
> so my question is: was Gill used exclusively on the N&W?  Or, were  
> they
> later replaced by Western Electric Selectors?
>
> Good evening,
>
> Frank Scheer
> f_scheer at yahoo.com
>
> Moderator:
> http://www.nwhs.org/mailinglist/2017/20170731.Gill-Selector.jpg
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 06:53:03 -0400
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: DW Flickwir Passes On
> Message-ID: <mailman.2915.1501498459.324.nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> With occasional discussion coming up recently, this article seems  
> relevant.
>
> It was published in the November 1935 issue of the Norfolk and Western
> Magazine.
>
>
> Matt Goodman
> Columbus, Ohio
>
> Moderator:
> http://www.nwhs.org/mailinglist/2017/20170731.DW.Flickwir.obit.JPG
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 15:48:47 -0400
> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> To: Cal Reynolds <wcalvin2919 at gmail.com>, RPMclinic
> 	<RPMclinics-JamesWall at yahoogroups.com>, SergentEng at yahoogroups.com,  
> nw
> 	hist <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>, NW models <nw-modeling- 
> list at nwhs.org>
> Subject: New RPM Meet
> Message-ID: <mailman.2916.1501498489.324.nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>> This is to announce a new Railway Prototype Modeler's meet, The  
>> Carolinas School of Railway Prototype Modeling (or ?RPM Carolinas?).
>>
>> Focusing on teaching popular modeling skills, RPM Carolinas will be  
>> held in Winston-Salem, North Carolina on Friday, October 20 and  
>> Saturday, October 21, 2017 at 1450 Fairchild Road, Winston Salem,  
>> North Carolina.?> ?>
>>
>> Please look at our website -- https://sissonstony <https://sissonstony/ 
>> >.wixsite.com/rpm-carolina <http://wixsite.com/rpm-carolina>?>  for  
>> a current list of clinicians and nearby hotels.
>>
>> ?> ?> Some items of note about RPM Carolinas:?> ?>
>>
>> 1. Create Your Own Southern Railway 36? Ventilated Box Car.  We  
>> will offer a "Bash 'n Build" clinic (with sincere appreciation to  
>> Greg Martin) taught by Fenton Wells that will enable participants  
>> to create a Southern Railway 120000-132499 <tel:120000-132499>  
>> series thirty-six foot ventilated boxcar ? a few of which ran until  
>> 1953.  The first 25 paid registrations received at our mailing  
>> address shown below will entitle the registrant to a complimentary  
>> Bash ?n Build kitcontaining:
>> ? An Accurail #1800 36' Boxcar kit,
>> ? Resin conversion castings by Dr. Dave Campbell; and
>> ? Custom decals by Dr. David Bott.
>>
>> A limited number of castings and decals will be available in the  
>> future for sale to those who do not receive one of the 25  
>> complimentary ?Bash ?n Build kits?.  Details later.
>>
>> 2. Hands On Weathering.  We will have several continuous "hands-on"  
>> weathering clinics over the two days featuring expert modelers,  
>> each of who have different weathering styles and application  
>> techniques so attendees can watch, practice ?hands on? weathering  
>> and decide what weathering style he or she prefers.  Our weathering  
>> clinicians are:
>> ? Dave Schroedle:  Oils + Powder + Gouache mix ? 33% each.
>> ? ?> ?> Brian Banna: Truck sideframes only, Pan Pastels varying  
>> color depth & cast.
>> ? Tony Sissons:  90% PanPastels + 5% oils + 5% acrylic.  Also hand  
>> painted graffiti.
>> ? Butch Eyler: Gouache 90% + oils/powder 10%.  Also hand painted  
>> graffiti.
>>
>> Weathering materials will be supplied.  Please bring your own  
>> brushes and a freight car
>> (We'll have a limited number of "practice" cars for those who need  
>> one).?> ?>
>>
>> 3. Historical Exhibitors/ Research Sources.  For attendees  
>> interested in railroad history, the Southern Railway Historical  
>> Association and the Norfolk and Western Historical Society will be  
>> exhibitors.  Moreover, there will be tables containing binders and  
>> binders of historic railroad photographs offered by Bob's Photos.
>>
>> 4. Clinicians:
>>
>>                          Tony Sissons                   Modifying  
>> "outta da box" NS coal gons to achieve prototype accuracy
>> 			  Rick Bell                           Historical Societies
>>            Chris Zygmun <>t                 Model Photography
>>            Ken Rickmann                  Using Shapeways
>>            Kevin von der Lippe         The Atlantic and Yadkin  
>> Winston-Salem Division
>>            Bob Harpe                        Modeling with Cannon  
>> Parts
>>            Rick Bell                           DCC Installation
>>            Fenton Wells                    Bash 'n Build a Southern  
>> 36 foot Ventilated Box Car
>>            Ken Rickmann                  Modeling Realistic Rail
>>            Kevin von der Lippe         Modeling Tobacco Barn
>>           Tom Sinks                         Beyond the Ps-4:   
>> Southern Steam 1903 - 1953
>>
>> Please mark your calendars for October 20-21 and, for updates and  
>> more details, go to:
>>
>> https://sissonstony.wixsite.com/rpm-carolina <https://sissonstony.wixsite.com/rpm-carolina 
>> >
>>
>> Tom Sinks
>> Tony Sissons
>> James Wall
>> Fenton Wells
>> Kevin von der Lippe
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> REGISTRATION FORM
>> RPM Carolinas
>> Winston-Salem, NC
>> October 20 and 21, 2017
>>
>>
>> Name:    _________________________________________
>>
>> Address:_________________________________________
>>
>> ?    __________________________________________
>>
>> E-Mail:   ______________________________________
>>
>> Optional:?If you wish to receive complimentary Southern Ventilated  
>> Box Car Conversion Kit for our ?Bash ?n Build? Seminar presented by  
>> Fenton Wells, please indicate below.
>>
>> ________ I wish to receive a complimentary ?Bash ?n Build?  
>> Ventilated Box Car Conversion kit.
>> [The first 25 paid registrations received will get the conversion  
>> kit.]  The first 25 paid registrations received will ?get the kit?.
>>
>> Please mail your registration form and check for $25 to:
>>
>> Kevin von der Lippe
>> P.O Box 38604
>> Greensboro, NC 27438
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> Tom Sinks
>> 126 Connally St.
>> Black Mountain, NC 28711
>> Twsgso at aol.com <mailto:Twsgso at aol.com>336-202-3545James Wall
> Rural Hall, NC
>
>
>
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