Starting coal trains

Tue Aug 18 22:50:35 EDT 2015

HA! Not a chance with a C4 and that tonnage. It was 4 ES44ACs that 
started the one on Dwyer.

The C4's are bad for slippage, which I both can and can't understand at 
the same time. GE's are supposed to be able to limit the loading of each 
motor individually on the ACs so you would think they would load to the 
most they could and then if a axle slipped it back the load off on that 
traction motor. BUT it doesn't happen...

On the Coal trains we never get C4s but we get them on the few freights 
and oil trains and its weird when staring a train a DC or ES44AC engine 
will hold the rail and not let up the C4 will slip, then once it grabs 
its fine until you try to accelerate then it will lose its footing 
again. I'm told they were designed for the hot shot intermodel trains on 
the transcon where you have light tonnage with extra power and 
relatively flat railroad (across Kansas) and want faster loading for 
acceleration. But even then I am told you get them on a hard pull and 
they will lose their footing.

Nathan

On 8/18/2015 18:01, NW Mailing List wrote:
> Able to do all that with C4’s?
>
>
> Walter Gay
> waltrail1 at verizon.net <mailto:waltrail1 at verizon.net>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:08 PM, NW Mailing List 
>> <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org <mailto:nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>> wrote:
>>
>> And this is still to a point used today. As you all know I'm out here 
>> in BN Coal country and this is the system that is used for starting 
>> on a hill with one of our coal trains. Except we use DP power 
>> therefore the engineer on the head end has control of both ends. One 
>> can 'fence' off the DP and control the throttle independently of the 
>> head end. Typically if one gets stopped on a hill the forward portion 
>> of the train is stretched and the rear is often already bunched up a bit.
>>
>> Coming out of Buckskin mine with a load is a hard pull and you are 
>> starting on a grade. What is the typical practice is one will fence 
>> off the rear and throttle it up to notch 8 while throttle the head 
>> end up to notch 4, then you slowly will feather off the independent 
>> brake, the rear being in 8 it will start shoving a greater portion of 
>> the train then the head end power will be pulling. This helps to 
>> prevent the pulling of knuckles and/or drawbars. once you have your 
>> train all on the move you will start coming on out on the head end 
>> throttle until you are in 8, then drop the fence and keep the DPs 
>> married up to the head end.
>>
>> Not to long ago we had a guy get stopped on Dwyer hill, in the rain. 
>> 2x2 with 135 cars. Typically if you get stopped on Dwyer, you are 
>> simply done. as you are strung out into reverse curves on a 1% grade. 
>> On this day with the rain he had wet rail which made it even more 
>> interesting. He was telling me he had the rear in 8and the head in 7, 
>> knocked the train air off and sat there at a stall for a couple 
>> minutes then feathered off the independent very very slowly, until 
>> the train barely started to move, he said there was just a few pounds 
>> difference on independent pressure between being stalled out or 
>> having it slip like mad. but slowly they inched up the hill as he 
>> gained speed he let off a little more independent. I think he said 
>> they topped out at 1.4 MPH! While not the show a Y6 put on I still 
>> bet this was an interesting show, and I know he earned his pay for 
>> the day. If it has to be diesel power at least it was AC power...
>>
>> Nate
>>
>> On 8/17/2015 05:19, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>> They didn’t start these trains all at once; they took advantage of 
>>> the slack in the cars (about a foot per car) as had been done 
>>> everywhere from time immemorial. If they got the pusher at Pepper 
>>> after stopping with the train stretched, the road engine would 
>>> (after he got the signal at the east end of Pepper siding) sit with 
>>> his throttle about half open and whistle off.  The pusher would 
>>> accept this as the signal to go, and would commence pushing the 
>>> slack in. When the pusher took up enough of the load, the road 
>>> engine would start itself and then they’d both get them wide open.  
>>> I’ve stood on top of the bluff in the 2184 photo and listened to a 
>>> “double”  get going, and could hear the road engine starting and 
>>> across the bend in the river  the pusher going faster shoving in the 
>>> slack 130 cars back – very intriguing.  If they started with the 
>>> slack in, the pusher would sit with his throttle about half open and 
>>> when the road engine took enough of the load, the pusher would start 
>>> itself.
>>> The same held true if a double got his pusher east of the Walton 
>>> interlocking. He’d stop and the train would be stretched.  The road 
>>> engine would sit with his throttle open; the pusher would couple up 
>>> and whistle off and start pushing.  When he’d taken up enough of the 
>>> load, the road engine would, as before, start itself.  Understand 
>>> that when the engines were sitting with throttles open, they were on 
>>> sand so they wouldn’t slip.
>>> They used  pretty much the same technique with diesels, 
>>> understanding that they couldn’t sit forever with the throttle open 
>>> and the engine not moving because of the short time ratings of the 
>>> traction motors, but they also had radio communications and could 
>>> work it out. In either case the object was to get the throttles wide 
>>> open as quickly as they could.
>>> These techniques also had to be used in the electric territory.  It 
>>> had been a requirement of the LC-1s and 2s that they could withstand 
>>> full throttle operation for five minutes with the engine sitting 
>>> still, which they could because of the AC motors.
>>> In all these instances, they took full advantage of the slack in the 
>>> cars.
>>> Class A engines didn’t start the 16,000 ton trains at Williamson all 
>>> at once.  They took full advantage of the slack, too. And that 
>>> practice was carried on in diesel days; faced with getting away from 
>>> Williamson (and it was practically dead level) with two GP30s and a 
>>> 20,000 ton train, there was no way you could start them with the 
>>> slack stretched. You jockeyed back and forth until you had them all 
>>> coming, and then advanced the throttle as much as you could. 
>>> Starting them a car at a time was a lot easier than trying to start 
>>> them all at once, as had been learned long ago.
>>> EdKing
>>>
>>>
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>> -- 
>> Nathan Simmons
>> trainman51 at gmail.com
>> http://www.t-51.org
>> KI4MSK
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-- 
Nathan Simmons
trainman51 at gmail.com
http://www.t-51.org
KI4MSK

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