Class J Shoppings after Jan 1956

Sat Aug 8 01:46:23 EDT 2015

Ken (or anybody else that would like to comment), what do you think of the
legacy that Stuart Saunders left behind? I don't know what to make of the
fact that he was only in charge of the PRR for a few years before they
merged with NYC and he was thrown out of the new combined PennCentral. I
have read that of the two merged railroads, the PRR was in really poor
financial shape compared to the NYC, with a tremendous maintenance backlog,
and the combined company never had a chance. Was Stuart Saunders just
unlucky, or was he at least partially responsible for this disaster (and
I'll take my answer off the air...)

Mike Weeks
Seattle

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:33 AM, NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
wrote:

> James
>
> While I hate to say this, but I suspect that your father was misinformed.
> I seriously doubt that Norfolk was offered a J officially, perhaps someone
> locally said, "you should ask for one, they probably will give it to you."
> Not knowing the attitude in Roanoke, that would be easy to visualize.
>
> Once Stuart Saunders took over the reins on April 1, 1958 as President, he
> seemed to have one major goal in mind, that was to make "his" railroad more
> modern and profitable, which would lead to him climbing the ladder to his
> dream job of running the Pennsylvania Railroad.
>
> If you notice, donated steam locomotives of the N&W were few and far
> between, two G1 2-8-0s in 1955, prior to Saunders. A Y6a, 2156 to a
> "National" museum in St. Louis in 1959, a Class M, 433 to Abingdon and
> finally E2a 578 to Worthington, Ohio. and of course, most well known 611.
>
> The others that were saved were more accidental. They had all been sold
> for scrap or stationary boiler use and then expected to be scrapped.
>
> The price of scrap was apparently fairly high at the end of steam, and
> getting that cash flow back was a concern after spending all that money
> buying new diesel. Saunders apparently had no sentiment to steam, and
> wanted it gone. The little stuff that was old did not seem to bother him,
> they were also smaller, less valuable locomotives.
>
> We have photos of Js at Portsmouth being weighed immediately prior to
> scrapping in August 1959. Those will appear in a revised Class J book at
> some point in the future if there is enough interest.
>
> It was only with a grand effort on Graham Claytor's part, with Bob Claytor
> working in the background that the 611 escaped the scrapper.
>
> Graham, then a lawyer in Washington DC, began a conversation with Saunders
> on the Appalachian Power trips in late August 1959 with 611 and continued
> his arguments to save the last J in correspondence with some outstanding
> points of the reasons to save the 611 over the next two months, finally,
> just days after the last trip on October 24, 1959, Saunders relented to
> Graham saying that the 611 would not be scrapped immediately. That eased
> the concern, but the occasional rumor of scrapping continued to surface
> until Saunders, probably wanting to stop hearing from fans about running
> the 611 again, decided in late May of 1962 to donate the 611 to Roanoke's
> forming Transportation Museum.
>
> I doubt that Saunders wanted to give anything away in 1959, especially to
> anything online. Does anyone have an exact date as to when 433 was given to
> Abingdon? I'd love to know a bit more background on 2156s donation and how
> it was initiated, and who knew who to get something like it for St. Louis.
>
> Ken Miller
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:37 AM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>
> > Ken, my father told me that the City of Norfolk had been offered one of
> the J's for display, but were turned down. I had always thought it was 600
> as I have seen photos of it dead at Lamberts Point, however, after reading
> your informative post, it may have been 612.
> >
> > James Flummer
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NW-Mailing-List [mailto:nw-mailing-list-bounces at nwhs.org] On
> Behalf Of NW Mailing List
> > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2015 9:05 AM
> > To: NW Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Class J Shoppings after Jan 1956
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > The last shopped, and last in service are often two different things.
> >
> > To quote from my book on the Class J, page 113:
> >
> > "The first Class J to go off the books was 604, featured in the tests of
> 1945 and 1948. It was retired at Shaffers Crossing on October 24, 1958. The
> other thirteen J's continued to soldier on, but by January most were stored
> awaiting assignments that would never come. The retirements commenced in
> earnest in 1959, with 602 retired at Bluefield on January 8. The 607 was
> next to go (on February 25 at Shaffers Crossing) followed by 601 at
> Portsmouth on March 27. The newest J, 613 was retired on March 27 at
> Portsmouth. The 603 would follow suit on April 24, at Bluefield, followed a
> month later by the 606, 608 and 609 on May 22, all at Bluefield. Well over
> half the fleet was gone by June 1. Only a year before, all N&W passenger
> service had been steam powered.
> >
> > The 605 was the next to go on June 15 at Williamson, followed by the
> very first J, 600, the next day at Lambert's Point. July was quiet, but on
> August 21, 610 was retired at Crewe and 612 at Lamberts Point."
> >
> > So, 604 which received class 3 repairs in March of 1958 was first to be
> retired seven months later. What is likely to have happened, and of course,
> this is totally speculation, is generally some problem developed that was
> not considered a running repair, so off it went. Of course, leased units
> were already on the property by mid July, so the Class Js were somewhat
> surplus material by late fall. We know that they did run in local service
> on the Norfolk Division as well as the Scioto Division, in addition to some
> time freight service there. As well, with heavy holiday mail and express
> traffic, the Js were pressed back into passenger service, but at the
> beginning of 1959, that traffic was gone and passenger GP9s had been
> arriving for about a month. So, anything that failed made for quick storage
> and/or retirement.
> >
> > As far as classified repairs go:
> >
> > The definition of classified repairs from an N&W document, I do not have
> any newer version, so I don't know if any of this changed later in the
> steam era or not, I sort of doubt it.
> >
> > N&W Railway Company
> > Classification of Locomotive Repairs
> > Revised: January 1, 1935
> >
> > Class No. 1
> > New boiler or new back end. Flues new or reset. Tires turned or new.
> > *General Repairs to machinery or tender.
> >
> > Class No. 2
> > New firebox, or one of more shell courses, or roof sheet.
> > Flues new or reset
> > Tires turned or new.
> > *General Repairs to machinery or tender.
> >
> > Class No. 3
> > Flues all new or reset. (Superheater flues may be excepted).
> > Necessary repairs to firebox and boiler. Tires turned or new.
> > *General Repairs to machinery or tender.
> >
> > Class No. 4
> > Flues full or part set.
> > Light repairs to boiler or firebox.
> > Necessary repairs to machinery and tender.
> >
> > Class No. 5
> > Light repairs, such as taking up lost motion, dropping wheels, etc., or
> any other repairs which would not properly be classified under any of the
> above.
> >
> > * General repairs to machinery will include driving wheels removed,
> tires turned or changed, journals turned, if necessary, and rods overhauled
> and bearings refitted and other repairs necessary for a full term of
> service.
> >
> > Locomotives receiving Classes 1, 2, 3 or 4 repairs must be put in
> condition to perform a full term or service in the district and class of
> service in which they are to be used.
> >
> > Locomotives receiving Class 5 repairs must be put in condition to
> perform not less than one-fourth term or service in the district and class
> of service in which they are to be used.
> >
> > Suffix "A"
> > Indicates that repairs are required on account of accident.
> >
> > Suffix "C"
> > Indicates the renewal of cylinders, the number of cylinders renewed to
> be shown directly following the suffix; e.g. C1 would indicate the renewal
> of one cylinder, C2 two, C3 three and C4, four cylinders. This suffix to be
> used with Classes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 repairs.
> >
> > Suffix "F"
> > Indicates full set renewal of flues, including superheater flues. When a
> part set of flues are renewed, they are to be shown as follows: F100-10
> would indicate that 100 small fire flues and 10 superheater flues had been
> renewed.
> > F0-10 would indicate that no small fire flues, but 10 superheater flues
> had been renewed. This suffix to be used with Classes 4, 5 and 6 repairs.
> >
> > Suffix "S"
> > Indicates the renewal of firebox sheets, the number of sheets renewed to
> be show directly followng the suffix; e.g., S1 would indicate the renewal
> of one sheet, S2 two, S3 three, S4 four sheets, etc. (To be counted as a
> sheet the piece must extend the full lenght or width. This suffix to be
> used with Classes 3, 4, 5 and 6 repairs.
> >
> > Best
> > Ken Miller
> >
> > On Aug 5, 2015, at 6:21 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
> >
> >> Bud,
> >>
> >> Excellent information! Thank you.
> >>
> >> I'm assuming the lower the Class number- the heavier the repair?
> >>
> >> Looking at the list of J's, it is plausible then to speculate that nos.
> 612 and 604 may have been the most recently heavy shopped J's in April of
> 1958.
> >>
> >> Jeff Lisowski
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Sic Semper Tyrannis!"
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