NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
NW Mailing List
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Sat Mar 12 21:03:34 EST 2011
I hope Ken will do the 800 article. I plan to submit an article to The Arrow on my early days on the N&W, but I am currently tied up on something else that has to come first.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
To: <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
> Ken and Gordon:
> I for one would be very Interested in reading more about the VGN 800 in the
> Arrow.Hope you will consider it .
> Gordon : As Gene mentioned It would be great to hear (Read) more about your
> younger years on the N&W .Thanks, Ken Tanner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
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> To: <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:29 PM
> Subject: NW-Mailing-List Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
>
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: VGN 800 (NW Mailing List)
>> 2. Re: VGN 800 (NW Mailing List)
>> 3. Injectors (NW Mailing List)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:35:12 -0500
>> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Message-ID: <CF4A2684D9E04C2B9C22F95865B52B75 at Jimmy>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> "An injector puts cold water (ignoring the steam used to operate it) into
>> the boiler, so an engineer could use his injector in such a way as to make
>> life tough for the fireman by killing steam pressure with cold water while
>> keeping the throttle way open."
>>
>> Gordon,
>> Short on time here, but, that is not exactly how it works or should be
>> told. In other words there is a lot of myth in your statement.
>>
>> Jimmy Lisle
>>
>> I should have added that that my reply may cause a number of questions and
>> in an effort not to veer the VGN 800 thread off course, maybe a new
>> "Injector" thread should be started.
>>
>> JL
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:49:17 -0500
>> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Message-ID: <A1989C826263484C85A1FD16F64CE108 at Gene>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Gordon;
>> Thank you for this info. I for one would like very much to hear the
>> stories and experiences of your younger years on the N&W.
>> Gene A.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: NW Mailing List
>> To: NW Mailing List
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>>
>>
>> Gene,
>>
>> With a little trepidation I'll throw out some comments for Ken and other
>> to use for target practice.
>>
>> VGN 800 was built in 1918 when feedwater (heater) pumps were not common,
>> and the Virginian Ry., diagram for this class of locomotive does not show
>> such a pump although Virginian diagrams for later locomotives do show such
>> pumps. Usually locomotives of this era had two boiler water injectors,
>> one for the fireman and one for the engineer, although I believe later
>> engines with feedwater heater pumps may have had only one injector.
>>
>> Based on my younger days tending fire and water on steam locomotive (N&W,
>> not Virginian) I would say that the fire could be readily dumped into the
>> ash pan by shaking the grates.
>>
>> Gordon Hamilton
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: NW Mailing List
>> To: NW Mailing List
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>>
>>
>> Ken;
>>
>> I for one would be very in interested in reading your article on the
>> 800 in the Arrow.
>> Being an ex-Navy Boilerman, should the feed water pumps( main and aux
>> fail, which was not likely to happen), and the boiler water level began to
>> drop. The procedure would be to drop the fires, easy enough on an oil
>> fired boiler, and secure all steam valves. What would be the procedure for
>> the coal fired steam locomotives. Were the injectors the only water
>> supply? How easy would it have been to drop the fires from the cab?
>>
>> Thanks;
>> Gene A.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: NW Mailing List
>> To: NW Mailing List
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: VGN 800
>>
>>
>> Thanks to Harry for his detailed report. I thought I might add a few
>> things.
>>
>>
>> Coming up on April 1, will be the 70th anniversary of the 800 blowing
>> up at Stewartsville, Virginia about 5:20 AM.
>>
>>
>> This tragedy killed all three crew members, Engineer John Dudding,
>> 46, Fireman Mead Brown, 25 and head brakeman Hollie Harrision, 26, less
>> than a week short of his 27th birthday. It would be hoped that all three
>> died instantly, as they were thrown great distances and dismembered by the
>> violence of the explosion.
>>
>>
>> While the Federal Investigators pinned the cause on a worn and pitted
>> injector nozzle, causing the injector to fail. They also pulled a large
>> quantity of cinders, coal and mud dredged out of the tender tank, which
>> could easily have caused the valve to the injector to have stopped up. The
>> injector had been reported as problematic in a number of inspection
>> reports both at Victoria and at Roanoke in the months prior to the
>> explosion, but apparently tested fine at Roanoke early in the morning of
>> April 1, 1941.
>>
>>
>> Of course, we'll never know exactly why the crew allowed the water to
>> get so low in the boiler. It could have been inexperience, as Harry
>> pointed out, Brown had only hired out on the Virginian about 6 months
>> previously, the crew could have been tired or not paying attention.
>> Another accident with less dramatic consequences a few years ago on the
>> Gettysburg Railroad, found that the water glass could have had some debris
>> in it giving a false indication of water in the gauge when there was none.
>> One of the photos shows the water column and glass, relatively intact I am
>> certain the investigators checked it, but the violence of the explosion
>> could have dislodged any debris in the line.
>>
>>
>> I've written a rather lengthy story on the 800's fateful trip, if
>> there is any interest, I'll submit it for the Arrow.
>>
>>
>> Ken Miller
>>
>>
>> On Mar 6, 2011, at 8:17 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've not stayed abreast of everything. What led to its explosion?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kim
>> Huntsville
>>
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>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:07:00 -0500
>> From: NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Subject: Injectors
>> To: "NW Mailing List" <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org>
>> Message-ID: <0C843A33A2DC47AF91B4D97DB2A60A00 at Jimmy>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> "An injector puts cold water (ignoring the steam used to operate it) into
>> the boiler, so an engineer could use his injector in such a way as to make
>> life tough for the fireman by killing steam pressure with cold water while
>> keeping the throttle way open."
>>
>> Gordon,
>> I guess we have all heard this same story and it has been ingrained in
>> our brain as "that's the way it is". Here is another one you may have
>> heard: "as the safety pop valves were going off, the engineer turned on
>> the injector to put cold water in the boiler and knock the pops down."
>> This all sounds plausable, eh?
>> The end results in each example are true. However, the way those
>> results are achieved are different from what we have all been told.
>> "Cold" water is a relative term. Water in the tender can be considered
>> as being at the current ambient temperature or shall we say "Cold". Water
>> in the working boiler is "Hot" and under steam pressure. Saturated steam
>> from the boiler is routed from the turret to and through the injector in
>> order to supply feedwater to the boiler. Inside the injector this steam
>> directly comes in contact with the cold feedwater from the tender and
>> actually is a type of "feedwater heater".
>> From this contact the steam thus heats the feedwater quite a bit.
>> Naturally it can only heat the water a relative amount. However, this
>> amount is quite a lot and thus the water entering the boiler at the check
>> valve is not "cold" by any means. It is not as hot as the water in the
>> boiler, but, it is not cold either. It can be said that feedwater from the
>> injector absorbs, for all intents and purposes, 100% of the heat used to
>> force the water into the boiler. By natuee, the injector can never supply
>> "cold" water to the boiler. Now hold that thought.
>> Switching to the other side of the engine is what we all know as the
>> "Feedwater Heater System". This includes a steam driven "Cold Water Pump",
>> the "Feedwater heater" and a steam driven "Hot Water Pump".
>> A very important note here is that the "Feedwater Heater" only supplys
>> heated water when the locomotive is being worked and there is exhaust
>> steam to mingle with the cold water.
>> When the locomotive is "working", (read under load), the Cold Water
>> Pump takes "cold" water from the tender and pumps it to the Feedwater
>> Heater section. Here the "cold " water is heated, directly or indirectly
>> (depending on the type of system), by exhaust steam used by the cylinders.
>> Again this "cold" water can only be heated a relative amount by this
>> exhaust steam. Once heated the "Hot Water Pump" is used to force the water
>> into the boiler. This water is also not as hot as boiler temperature.
>> The amount of heat transmitted to the water by the "FWH" depends on how
>> much exhaust steam moves through the heater which is determined by how
>> hard the locomotive is being worked. Since the pumps of the "FWH" system
>> are steam driven, it would be possible to actually force "cold" water
>> into the boiler.Thus the "FWH" is not used while the loco is sitting
>> still.
>> But, for the most part, "cold" water never enters the boiler. Neither
>> the injector or the feedwater reason can supply the boiler with water as
>> hot as what is already there.
>> Back to the injector. As explained, when the injector is turned on, it
>> uses live steam from the boiler to operate. The use of this live steam
>> naturally reduces the pressure in the boiler in order to supply the
>> boiler. It is this use of live steam "from the boiler" to supply itself
>> with water is the root cause of the reduction of boiler pressure and not
>> so much from the relative lack of heat of the water being fed to the
>> boiler.
>> The savings in using the "FWH" is that it utilizes heat from the
>> exhaust steam that has already been charged to the boiler. The effect on
>> any boiler pressure reduction caused by the use of live steam to supply
>> the FWH pumps is minimal.
>>
>> Jimmy Lisle
>>
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