Jackie Robinson Special-N&W?

[NW Mailing List]

Ken, Harry and Frank,
I also was intrigued by the Ken Burns Baseball Special referring to a train from Norfolk to Cincinnati called the Jackie Robinson Special. I researched at the N&WHS Archives and only found the same references that are on line. However I asked Gary Wood, a recently retired N&W engineer, if he had ever heard of such a train. His answer gave me a litle spark of knowledge. He remembered early in his career hearing "several" older N&W engineers talking about this special. Gary remembers that it was reported as separate (chartered) special train but with no markings.
The answers will no doubt be found in the Norfolk newspapers of that time that did the advetizing for it.
Skip Salmon
---- NW Mailing List <nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

=============
Ken and Harry:

Thanks for posts re Jackie Robinson\N&W Specials.

I am overseas, working on projects here, and will reply upon return to
the US in December.

Go well. Frank


On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:50:03 -0400, NW Mailing List
<nw-mailing-list at nwhs.org> wrote:

> On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:11 PM, NW Mailing List wrote:

> I have been following the rebroadcast of PBS' American Experience/

> Ken Burns Baseball. In the most recent segment featuring the Jackie

> Robinson story, fleeting MENTION IS MADE OF THE "JACKIE ROBINSON

> SPECIAL", a train running in the 1947 season from Norfolk to

> Cincinnati for Robinson fans delirious over JACKIE'S HAVING BEEN

> SIGNED BY THE BROOKLYN DODGERS THAT YEAR, THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN

> ADMITTED TO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. YEARS BEFORE IN THE NEGRO LEAGUES

> JACKIE HAD PLAYED ON THE NORFOLK TEAM. THE "SPECIAL" RAN WHEN THE

> DODGERS PLAYED AT CINCINNATI.

>

> SOUNDS LIKE THE RAIL PROTAGONIST WAS THE N&W, END TO END. CAN ANYONE

> CONFIRM?

>

> HAS THE STORY EVER APPEARED IN THE ARROW? IF NOT, ISN'T IT TIME THAT

> IT DID?

>

> I'D BE GLAD TO WORK ON RECOVERING THE STORY, OR COLLABORATE WITH

> OTHERS. ANYONE KNOW WHERE DETAILS MIGHT BE UNCOVERED? PERHAPS NEWS

> STORIES IN THE NORFOLK AND CINCINNATI NEWSPAPERS, FOR A START? ANY

> NORFOLK AND CINCINNATI PEOPLE CARE TO INQUIRE?

>

> I GOOGLED WHAT I COULD, AND FOUND--AGAIN, JUST A PASSING REFERENCE--A

> NOTE (P. 196) IN JULES TYGIEL'S "BASEBALL'S GREAT EXPERIMENT--JACKIE

> ROBINSON AND HIS LEGACY", 1997 (REVISED EDITION), PRINTED ON OCCASION

> OF THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF ROBINSON'S BREAKING THE COLOR BARRIER IN

> THE NATIONAL SPORT.

>

> SO ANYONE WITH INFO OR POINTERS FOR RESEARCH, DO SPEAK UP!

>

> FRANK GIBSON

>

> Frank

>

> Since I've seen no response to your inquiry of now 2 months ago, I

> thought you might benefit from the following. I suspect the lack of

> response shows a general lack of knowledge or information on the

> specific question. So I thought I'd pass on my thoughts. You may have

> to do some serious detective work, so I did some of the research, as

> it did kind of intrigue me. I started this a long time ago, but did

> not send it like I thought, so my apologies for the overlong

> dissertation. As you will see, this is not going to be an easy answer

> question. I've done some of the research and gone into some detail

> here. Having been involved in planning of long distance excursion

> trains in the modern era, I feel some of that experience factors in.

>

> While the story itself may be interesting, it sounds that it might

> simply be a short story, not much more. This is, so far, what I

> consider anecdotal history, or nothing to document it other than word

> of mouth. I do not have the book you referenced, so I can't really

> speak to the author's source, but it may indeed have been anecdotal as

> well.

>

> I've done a good bit of the digging for you, after you read the

> following, if you still think there might be a story you will want to

> pursue further it will probably take some time.

>

> In general, anecdotal history, is simply history passed down through

> time, just because it sounds like it should be the case, in some

> people's mind, it must have been, but reality can often be totally

> different. A number of publishers are less than concerned with

> accuracy, their interest is in getting a product to market, facts and

> correct information are not important.

>

> I know nothing about the book you cited, and I'm not really

> interested enough to purchase a copy of the book cited to check it

> out, and none of the local libraries have it.

>

> Rather than spend weeks searching through the Norfolk newspapers

> which may yield nothing. First you should have a look at the reality

> and speculate to what might have been done at the time. Some of my

> thoughts are:

>

> If this special did run, it could have been either the C&O or the

> N&W, both served the tidewater area and Cincinnati. The C&O served

> Norfolk, while technically ending at Newport News, the C&O did have a

> Norfolk station at one time which was only connected via ferry or

> later a bus. The C&O would serve a slightly larger population base

> along the way, however.

>

> Passenger specials were common in the steam era and on up until the

> mid 1960s. I doubt you are going to find anyone who might have been

> involved in the planning, or scheduling of any such train, as we are

> now talking 63 years ago, at least that might remember any specifics.

> I'm not aware of the existence of any company files on excursion

> trains from that era, as most of the passenger department files seemed

> to have been tossed out after the end of service in 1971.

>

> The N&W regularly ran baseball specials to Cincinnati, usually from

> Bluefield or Williamson and west to Cincinnati, the C&O ran specials

> as well, most running from Charleston or Huntington, but on at least

> one occasion from Clifton Forge. Cincinnati was a great destination

> for both roads, as the original Crosley Field was within reasonable

> walking distance of Cincinnati Union Terminal. In fact, the June 1947

> N&W Magazine had a feature story on the first post war excursion

> train, a baseball special from Bluefield to Cincinnati, consisting of

> sixteen coaches and a single diner. The article did not give a full

> schedule unfortunately.

>

> This special was for a doubleheader with the Boston Braves on Sunday,

> May 18, 1947. According the article, the train left Bluefield at 9:30

> pm on the 17th with 103 passengers on board, added 127 at Welch, 131

> at Williamson, 34 at Kenova and finally 83 at Portsmouth. Between

> Bluefield and Portsmouth, the special stopped at most of the local

> stops along the way adding passengers at every place, adding an

> additional 215 enroute at the local stops. The train finally arrived

> at Cincinnati with a full load of 693 passengers. Running, essentially

> as a local from Bluefield to Portsmouth, the schedule was slow working

> passengers at every stop. That is an average of 57.75 riders per

> coach, pretty efficient transportation. Riders came from all around

> the region according to the article, Pocahontas, Richlands, Bossevain,

> etc. etc. I'd hazard a guess that arrival in Cincinnati was somewhere

> around 11 am.

>

> Not everyone on board went to the games, it was reported that some

> went to visit relatives, others went to the zoo. Regardless, as you

> can see, baseball was a very popular sport in the coal country. These

> specials were an easy way to generate some additional passenger

> business with just a little extra effort. 1947 was still a fairly busy

> passenger year after the war.

>

> By the way, the Reds split the doubleheader with the Braves. Some

> 24,432 fans attended. From the photo in the N&W Magazine, it was

> obviously a day game.

>

> According to the schedule (Baseball Almanac) I found, Brooklyn played

> at Cincinnati on three different occasions during the 1947 season:

>

> Tuesday, 05-13-1947

> Wednesday, 05-14-1947

>

> Saturday, 06-21-1947

> Sunday, 06-22-1947, Double Header

>

> Sunday, 09-14-1947 Double Header

> Tuesday, 09-16-1947

>

> The most logical assumptions would be the two doubleheaders, the

> first on Sunday, June 22, or second September 14. Cincinnati was the

> first place to install lights for night play, playing the first game

> under the lights in 1935. So I do not know if these games were day or

> night, it certainly seems likely that the both double headers were day

> games, as it was a Sunday.

>

> I went through the entire year of 1947 N&W Magazines, and could find

> no mention of any Jackie Robinson Special. I was not surprised by

> that, as I said, excursions were fairly common at the time and only

> occasionally when it was unusual or really special, were they reported

> in the Magazine.

>

> Now as far as a train ride from Norfolk to Cincinnati and return, it

> is a long ride, over 600 miles by rail.

> By my April 1947 timetable, No. 3, the Pocahontas left Norfolk at

> 2:40 pm with arrival in Cincinnati at 8:10 am, running time of 17

> hours and 50 minutes.

> The Powhatan Arrow, No. 25 departed at 7:30 am, arrival at 11 pm,

> running time of 15 hours, 10 minutes.

> No. 15, The Cavalier, leaving Norfolk at 11 pm, arrival at Cincinnati

> 7:50 pm, running time of 20 hours and 50 minutes.

>

> No. 3 and No. 15 both were worked with mail and express in between

> points, cutting cars in and out, slowing the schedule. The Arrow was a

> shorter train, 6-8 cars (at that time) with much more limited stops

> and no mail and express or sleepers. Mostly lightweight equipment as

> well. But if this alleged special was like the other baseball special

> mentioned above, it did a lot of local stopping. Since it was likely

> to be a coach train with a diner, it would likely have been 16 of the

> heavyweight, 1600 series PG coaches and a De diner.

>

> With a heavier train, and many local stops, the special would

> certainly not be able to make the Arrow's schedule.

>

> So, with averaging out the time, lets give a special train a running

> time somewhere between the Pocahontas and the Cavalier, so lets call

> it about 19.5 hours running time, each way. That would include time

> for local rider handling, plus time to add or remove a diner in

> Roanoke. Lets add an hour in Cincinnati for time to get to the game. I

> don't know what time of day the games were scheduled for, but usually

> today it is around 2 PM. Since you really can't cut the schedule too

> close due to possible delays, even with "Precision Transportation" you

> better plan on arrival in Cincinnati at least 3 hours ahead of

> schedule, so the arrival is 11 AM so, now you have to back time from

> Norfolk to leave at 4:30 pm the day before. Then you have to have some

> time to allow for extra innings games, so you might get back and

> loaded to roll from Union Station at 7 or so, which means you are back

> into Norfolk at somewhere around 2 the next afternoon. That is a

> really long trip, and without sleepers, a VERY long coach ride

> overnight.

>

> So it seems most likely it might be an overnight outing, complicating

> the arrangements, with hotels, which may well easily eliminate the

> railroad's involvement.

>

> The C&O did not have a better schedule, with connections to ride No.

> 1, The George Washington would have a total time of about 18 hours and

> 20 minutes, No. 3 the FFV was a bit slower with a total time of about

> 19 hours and 50 minutes. Now bear in mind, these were connections from

> Newport News to the mainline at Charlottesville, so these are not

> straight running times. I did not have handy a 1947 C&O timetable, so

> those times may be a bit off. But regardless, I'd say that any C&O

> trip would easily be somewhat longer than the N&W.

>

> Now on to the facts of the baseball side, at least according to what

> I have found, the Norfolk Tars were a New York Yankee farm team in

> 1944-1946, but they played in the Piedmont league. To tie this back to

> the railroad, Roanoke also fielded a team, the Roanoke Red Sox in the

> Piedmont League at that time. Jackie played only 45 games in the negro

> leagues, that was for the Kansas City Monarchs in 1945. He had been in

> the US Army prior to that. In 1946, he was signed to the Brooklyn

> Dodgers and assigned to their farm team in Montreal. Norfolk did not

> have a team in the International League in 1946. Since baseball (and

> the south) was still widely segregated, I sort of doubt that anything

> other than an exhibition game may have been played in the Norfolk area

> which would likely have had to have been the Kansas City Monarchs

> against some other team (I'd say most likely another black team), as

> apparently it was a popular area for baseball. Where they would play,

> I'm not certain.

>

> I'd be curious to know why Jackie Robinson would have had any greater

> following in the Norfolk area than other places, since he was not from

> that area and, at least from what I've seen, did appear to play there.

>

> Now, as far as how to find information on any special train. That is

> going to require some real time and effort, and even with that, you

> may or may not find anything. The N&W and others usually printed up

> flyers that would be hung at various stations along the way for

> special trains. By no means do I have a really good collection of

> those flyers, I've seen ones for other baseball specials, including

> one to see Babe Ruth play in an exhibition game. But not one in this

> specific case.

>

> In my opinion, this trip does not seem to be a really likely

> scenario, mainly due to the list of things above. I'm not saying it

> didn't, I'd be glad to see some evidence that it did, I just think it

> will be difficult at best, possibly even next to impossible to find if

> it was real, or just anecdotal history. If I was planning on

> researching this, I'd start by searching the Norfolk newspaper,

> looking for ads for a trip in April and May or even early June, or

> August and September of 1947. Unfortunately, to my searching, the

> Norfolk, Roanoke, Lynchburg or Cincinnati papers are not available

> online that I can find. It might have been mentioned in the CIncinnati

> paper after the fact. Other places I'd try would be the Lynchburg and

> Roanoke papers, but I just feel like it will be chasing a ghost, that

> may prove to find nothing. There is absolutely no guarantee of the

> trip being advertised in the paper either, advertising costs money,

> and will cut into the potential profits, the N&W seems to have rarely

> advertised for such specific things, at least by this time period.

>

> Best

> Ken Miller


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Skip Salmon
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